observations from the range today...

[pbgear]

ordered up some lapua match 223 brass to see what it would do for my rifles, put together some loads I found recommended here and went to the range today. here are my findings.

the first rifle is a 223 richards custom (I have attached the spec sheet). I was able to do ~ 1.25" ctc with lake city brass three rounds at 300 yards. made some loads with the new lapua brass (25.0 h322, wolf primer, barts 52) and my first two 300 yard three shot groups went 0.593" and 0.670" ctc respectively. the lapua brass made a huge difference.

my second rifle is a just broken in clark custom gator rifle. it would regularly do 5 rounds into 0.35"-0.50" ctc at 100 yards. neither the lapua brass nor the barts bullets did anything to shrink my group sizes. in fact it liked my sierra 52 hpbt moly match kings sitting on h335 and lc brass better than anything else.

I will be using the lapua match brass and barts bullets solely in the bolt gun going forward as they seem to be overkill with no resulting accuracy increase in my ar platform.

just my observations - thought I would pass them along to anyone considering expensive match components for improving their ar groupings.

 

[Bart]

Did you have wind flags?

Bart

 

[pbgear]

no wind flags, but only a 5-10 mph wind

nt

 

[jackie schmidt]

Guessing

PB, without windflags, you might have had a good time at the range, but for the purposes you went for, you wasted your time.


You really need to do some serious Bench work with that Richards Rifle. It might surprise how well that thing will shoot at 100 yards You will also be surprised how much a good set of winflags will improve your shooting.........jackie

 

[ScottD]

That is great shooting - you should be excited about that.

These guys are right about wind flags. A 22 caliber 52g bullets at 3200fps has a 10mph wind drift of 12" at 300 yards. So, you did great for that much wind and no windflags. Using windflags will only make the groups get smaller.

 

[pbgear]

That is great shooting - you should be excited about that.

These guys are right about wind flags. A 22 caliber 52g bullets at 3200fps has a 10mph wind drift of 12" at 300 yards. So, you did great for that much wind and no windflags. Using windflags will only make the groups get smaller.

thanks for the reply, as you can probably tell, my groups were not centered - but rather measured ctc. I really doubt that I could do better at 300 even if I had flags - the gun might but I probably couldn't. I agree on the wind flags at 300 for centered grouping but felt at 100 they were immaterial as I was going for ctc measurement for comparative purposes, not for score within scoring rings.

thanks,
Jeff

 

[Bart]

Jeff

You have to have them even at 100 yards. I have four rows of four (16) total to shoot 100 yards. Get some wind flags and you will see what I am talking about.

I have the best equipment you can buy and wouldn't consider testing loads without flags.

Bart

 

[LHSmith]

thanks for the reply, as you can probably tell, my groups were not centered - but rather measured ctc. I really doubt that I could do better at 300 even if I had flags - the gun might but I probably couldn't. I agree on the wind flags at 300 for centered grouping but felt at 100 they were immaterial as I was going for ctc measurement for comparative purposes, not for score within scoring rings.

thanks,
Jeff

Your logic eludes me on this explanation.

 

[pbgear]

Your logic eludes me on this explanation.

here is my logic. I can to some extent as a sniper feel/read the wind. If I could not - I do not believe the groups I shot at 300 yards would have been achieved without wind flags. that being said with a relatively steady, non gusting wind I was able to achieve some very good (certainly not world class) groups at 300 yards. could wind flags have dropped that group size by 0.1-0.2" possibly - but that would have made my groups more in the realm of world class - and those results are beyond my pay grade.

the wind shift at 100 yards is far less significant a factor and with 12 loads tested my results were what they were - and even moderate operator error is not a factor at this range within my operational atmospheric conditions.

 

[Boyd Allen]

Let me reiterate, no wind flags = you have no idea what the wind was doing between you and the target. One does not have to invest in expensive equipment. Sticks and surveyor tape will get you started. Yes, buying flags and stands, storing them, hauling them, putting them out, and packing them and putting them away takes effort, but they are an integral part of Benchrest. They are definitely not window dressing. Have you ever been to a Benchrest match? The range is covered with them. It happens all the time that I see guys at the range, with expensive equipment, "testing" things, without flags. the think that they know what is causing their groups to be larger or smaller. By and large they don't. It is a package deal, and hard enough even if you have all the right stuff.

 

[pbgear]

Let me reiterate, no wind flags = you have no idea what the wind was doing between you and the target. One does not have to invest in expensive equipment. Sticks and surveyor tape will get you started. Yes, buying flags and stands, storing them, hauling them, putting them out, and packing them and putting them away takes effort, but they are an integral part of Benchrest. They are definitely not window dressing. Have you ever been to a Benchrest match? The range is covered with them. It happens all the time that I see guys at the range, with expensive equipment, "testing" things, without flags. the think that they know what is causing their groups to be larger or smaller. By and large they don't. It is a package deal, and hard enough even if you have all the right stuff.

thank you for the advice.

 

[Bill Wynne]

I just have to say that that is very good shooting. That is the way I would have done it a few years ago.

You have the wind flag advice from the best benchrest shooters. I would try wind flags a few times and see what they are saying.

Concho Bill

 

[pbgear]

I just have to say that that is very good shooting. That is the way I would have done it a few years ago.

You have the wind flag advice from the best benchrest shooters. I would try wind flags a few times and see what they are saying.

Concho Bill

thank you sir, advice well taken. best regards

 

[markharp]

not to pile on....

but since I only got into this seriously a little over a year ago....

Until you actually shoot over flags you won't understand what these guys are saying. Pls trust me on that one.

I had a great time last week shooting an Anny 17hmr in swirling wind at only 50yds. Those little suckers go with the wind like you wouldn't believe. I had a great time steering those things. Ignoring the flags, 1" groups,,,, using and really focussing, shot some groups around .3. Wonderfull illustration of what they can do for you.

Watching the flags and seeing how it moves your bullet is an eye opener that you can't understand until you do it.

After that day you will understand that shooting without them,,, with any gun,,, is a waste of time and bullets if you are really trying to evaluate something.

Mark

 

[Pete Wass]

What you have to realize

is there is a big difference between some small groups and aggregate groups that are small. Snipers have, perhaps 6 inches to work with but Benchrest shooters must shoot groups under .150 in a 5 group aggregate to be on the podium . Benchresters have devised a method of being able to do that by using windflags. Score shooters must hit a 1/16 dot 25 times to win a Score match in these tomes.

With all due respect, the Benchrest game has evolved to be what it is by the test of competition and that is always an aggregate of 5 matches. In score shooting it is the perspn who hits the dot the most times but the test always in a multible of five. No didrespect but you won't find any results of anyone shooting benchrest with a .223.

 

[alinwa]

And to REALLY change the subject......


I submit that the results were from something else entirely. IMO the Lapua brass simply fit the first rifle better. it was LONGER or FATTER or had LESS CLEARANCE at the neck so it shot better.

The second rifle simply couldn't take advantage of this for whatever reason, probably just has more chamber clearance.


Initial FIT is IMO much more important than any mixture of components. Now, get the FIT right, like fired brass and necksize-only and we'll see not only better groups but a better representation of the effect of the componentry.


I offer as my "proof" the infamous story of Jim Carmichel testing a Speedy Gonzales full-blown BR Grade rifle against a bunch of factory swill and Speedy's rifle LOST!!!! (a SAD story IMO )


Speedy's rifle LOST for one reason only, it wasn't properly fitted to the factory ammo used in the "test."

I further submit (PUREST speculation on my part) that were one to examine the Savage rifle which "beat" Speedy's gun, one would find that someone had set the headspace to be a nice tight fit on the factory rounds.


At least that's how I'D OF played the scam.......


I think pb's prolly a good shooter and that the one mix of rifle/components just "click'd" better.

Betcha'buck that if pb measures up his fired rounds from the two rifles I could come up with a working hypothesis to support my contention.


opinionsby



al

 

[nickbauer]

no disrespect

Pete,

Your response is admirable and I admire the honesty (I'm one of the few that prefers the brutal honesty), but encouragement is the key to the success of Benchrest ("new recruits") . In my humble opinion you should say, "Yes, your 223 did well, I know it can do better, I know you can do better, and wind flags will only help to prove that (and last of all don't expect to win but have fun and learn at the same time. )"

As a shooter of a 22-250 for the past 3 years, if I didn't have the encouraging words of the fellow shooters at my local range I would have quit a long time ago. I know I don't have a chance of beating of them, but I know at some point I want to move up to their point skill/equipment wise.

As I said before, no disrespect,
Nick

P.S. Wind flags might possibly be your best friend in Benchrest shooting.

 

[Redrock]

Flags

Your telling yourself flags these guys are nuts there a pain to set and that bullets moving at 3400fps, I know what I'm doing hell i'm a sniper who are these guys to tell me how to shoot no way does a little wind move that bullet out of my group, and as a former member of the 82d Airborne Division myself i'm here to tell you your learning has just begun make sure you keep an open mind and remain teachable, here is some data concerning your groups:

Wind Drift @ 100yds @ 3300fps 52gr Sierra MK from 9. @ 10mph 1.11"
Wind Drift @ 100yds @ 3300fps 52gr Sierra MK From 9. @ 5mph .56"

These are just raw numbers but if you take the difference of those two numbers and add some gusts, let offs, pick ups, switches and so on who knows how that thing shoots but take the time like Jackie said and do some serious bench work and you will be rewarded, welcome to a wonderful pastime.

 

[caroby]

Yes 10,000 times

I had a great time last week shooting an Anny 17hmr in swirling wind at only 50yds. Those little suckers go with the wind like you wouldn't believe. I had a great time steering those things. Ignoring the flags, 1" groups,,,, using and really focussing, shot some groups around .3. Wonderfull illustration of what they can do for you.

Watching the flags and seeing how it moves your bullet is an eye opener that you can't understand until you do it.

After that day you will understand that shooting without them,,, with any gun,,, is a waste of time and bullets if you are really trying to evaluate something.

Mark


Very well done Mark...... Well said..!
Absolutly dead true......!

Jeff,
Ya did a FINE job in selecting and having QUALITY rifles built by QUALITY smiths... Combine this with an ability to SEE the wind, a hole new aspect of ACCURACY you will discover...

Professionally built flags may eventually be your ultimate pursuit...
In the mean time you can assemble simple and effective flags fer min $$$... Least to get the idea from the get go...

Some don't like the idea of a metal rod down range so substitute with 1/2" 3-4' dowle rods...
See attachment of the simple flag...

Many roll their eyes when one sets flags at a typical rifle range... Let'em laugh. You shoot SMALL..! More Consistently!
I as well as others on this thread and whole Benchrest forums would agree that head'n off to the range without our flags is tentamount to not wearing cloths outside of the home........... Well..... For most

good luck Mark,
cale

 

[Pete Wass]

Well, here's the deal

Pete,

Your response is admirable and I admire the honesty (I'm one of the few that prefers the brutal honesty), but encouragement is the key to the success of Benchrest ("new recruits") . In my humble opinion you should say, "Yes, your 223 did well, I know it can do better, I know you can do better, and wind flags will only help to prove that (and last of all don't expect to win but have fun and learn at the same time. )"

As a shooter of a 22-250 for the past 3 years, if I didn't have the encouraging words of the fellow shooters at my local range I would have quit a long time ago. I know I don't have a chance of beating of them, but I know at some point I want to move up to their point skill/equipment wise.

As I said before, no disrespect,
Nick

P.S. Wind flags might possibly be your best friend in Benchrest shooting.

I divorced an alcoholic wife several years ago who belonged to AA but continued to cheat her way through her chits. Deluding one's self is no way to proceed in life and Tough Love is the best medicine anyone can render to anyone they care about. expect to receive what I render. If I'm deluded, I want to know about it and given credable information, I can and do change my mind.