New rifle builds!

T

tonykharper

Well-known member
A lot of talk has been made of two rifle builds in the making.

The J Pat Spec 1 rifle.

The Ivan Wells build of the Vudoo V22S F/BR rifle.

I've been led to believe these rifles will represent the new "State of the Art" for RFBR.

So far it has been all talk, but neither has been seen in the flesh.

I can't confirm these rifles even exist.

If you know more about these please post it here.

Matter of fact, if you know of other new rifle builds for RFBR post that too.

We are being kept in the dark by our RF Elites

TKH
 
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If I am not mistaken Evelio Macdonald has been mentioned as a factory coordinated builder of V22S equipment.
I have no personal experience with him but a few guys I know speak highly of him.
 
tim said:
If I am not mistaken Evelio Macdonald has been mentioned as a factory coordinated builder of V22S equipment.
I have no personal experience with him but a few guys I know speak highly of him.
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I've have heard the same. I'm sure many would be interested in any info he or others may like to share.

It's winter, rifle building time. If others have found a better mouse trap let the rest of us see what it is.

I keep hearing whispers about these rifles but no real information.

Hate to show up at the first match and find I have been left behind in this race for rimfire supremacy.

TKH
 
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The Ignition ,FP replacement

VooDoo is sending out Retro fit FP`s for those already built by VooDoo! Evidently there is only one 6:00FP made for the V22s ! And no Retro Fit replacement ! The guy that owns the v22s is getting a new pin from Utah , maybe the same 6:00 he has ! FTF is his problem ! I guess this will solve his Failure to sleep also !
 
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Slick Willy said:
First ones out had Major issue with FP strike !
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I just saw a pic on another channel that shows V22S firing pin strikes that look to be in the correct location.

Last year I spent a great amount of time trying to find the right strike location, and the right force to make crescent shaped pins provide consistent ignition.

I achieved a working solution but it was by trial and error. I have not found a one size fits all solution.

I set up pins for 4 rifles, each ended up with different spring rates, and length of firing pin fall. Not by a lot, but different.

I note the V22S actions are being shipped with multiple springs. I'm fairly sure they had the same experience I did.

I have another thread where I was trying to get J Pat and Ivan to share their experience building these new "State of the Art" rifles. No luck so far.

The RFBR elite are keeping us in the dark.

TKH
 
There is a post on RA ,technical section !

Real Pretty strikes on the outer extreme , fail to fire ! post #24 Technical Section ! Should have never left Utah !
 
tonykharper said:
I just saw a pic on another channel that shows V22S firing pin strikes that look to be in the correct location.

Last year I spent a great amount of time trying to find the right strike location, and the right force to make crescent shaped pins provide consistent ignition.

I achieved a working solution but it was by trial and error. I have not found a one size fits all solution.

I set up pins for 4 rifles, each ended up with different spring rates, and length of firing pin fall. Not by a lot, but different.

I note the V22S actions are being shipped with multiple springs. I'm fairly sure they had the same experience I did.

I have another thread where I was trying to get J Pat and Ivan to share their experience building these new "State of the Art" rifles. No luck so far.

The RFBR elite are keeping us in the dark.

TKH
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Thanks for the update Tony.
You know me.....these things lead me to questions and I have two regarding working with the 1/2 moon pin. Should you not wish to answer, I understand.
In talking with a couple qualified folks everybody understands they require more spring. Any thoughts, generally, how much more you ended up at ?
Lastly, have you seen improvement to go with any ?
 
tim said:
Thanks for the update Tony.
You know me.....these things lead me to questions and I have two regarding working with the 1/2 moon pin. Should you not wish to answer, I understand.
In talking with a couple qualified folks everybody understands they require more spring. Any thoughts, generally, how much more you ended up at ?
Lastly, have you seen improvement to go with any ?
Click to expand...

I would love to answer your questions with an answer I felt comfortable offering. But the truth is I can't.

When I started messing with these crescent shaped pins I ground the shape by hand. Which is another way of saying no two were exactly alike.

I used springs Tim Miller and I bought from a spring maker in Kentucky. They are the same thickness as the Pepper springs and start out 2.300 long.

After about three days of being installed in the bolt they are about 2.180 long.

Pepper springs don't seem to lose so much length so fast.

These springs would give me fail to fires about 1 time out of 10. To fix this I added spacers about .080 thick to the spring.

I shot the rifle that way for awhile and really saw no real improvement.

Then Di Orio came out with his crescent pins. They were EDM machined therefore very uniform. Of course I had to have them. He installed them in my bolts and I was off to the races.

Well I thought, I started getting FTFs and once again I added spacers. This took awhile but I finally got them to working. But again, I saw no real improvement.

Then Di Orio received his new springs that was to cure the FTF problem. I finally got one and installed it.

Feeling really good about the whole thing and not having time to really test I headed to a big match and immediately had case head penetration's.

Firing pin went straight through the case head and black crap filled my chamber causing havoc with accuracy. Not to mention cleaning.

Next target I went to my back up rifle which had the same setup. About the third shot penetrated the case head just like before.

Not too happy on the ride home. Back to the drawing board. I went back to my old springs and used spacers of different thicknesses to fix the problem.

I didn't mention changing the firing pin fall. I did that too but it messed up my trigger function/feel.

So I put the trigger back in time and those problems went away.

Yes, a hell of a lot of trouble, and no I can't honestly say it has paid off. But at this point the rifles are shooting and I ain't going back.

TKH
 
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tonykharper said:
I would love to answer your questions with an answer I felt comfortable offering. But the truth is I can't.

When I started messing with these crescent shaped pins I ground the shape by hand. Which is another way of saying no two are alike.

I used springs Tim Miller and I bought from a spring maker in Kentucky. They are the same thickness as the Pepper springs and start out 2.300 long.

After about three days of being installed in the bolt they are about 2.180 long.

Pepper springs don't seem to lose so much length so fast.

These springs would give me fail to fires about 1 time out of 10. To fix this I added spacers about .080 thick to the spring.

I shot the rifle that way for awhile and really saw no real improvement.

Then Di Orio came out with his crescent pins and of course I had to have them. He installed them in my bolts and I was off to the races.

Well I thought, I started getting FTFs and once again I added spacers. This took awhile but I finally got them to working. But again, I saw no real improvement.

Then Di Orio received his new springs that was to cure the FTF problem. I finally got one and installed it.

Feeling really good about the whole thing and not having time to really test the rifle I took the rifle to a big match and immediately had case head penetration's.

Firing pin went straight through the case head and black crap filled my chamber causing havoc with accuracy. Not to mention cleaning.

Next target I went to my back up rifle which had the same setup. About the third shot penetrated the case head just like before.

Not too happy on the ride home But back to the drawing board. I went back to my old springs and used spacers of different thicknesses to fix the problem.

I didn't mention changing the firing pin fall. I did that too but it messed up my trigger function/feel.

So I put the trigger back in time and those problems went away.

Yes, a hell of a lot of trouble, and no I can't honestly say it has paid off. But at this point the rifles are shooting and I ain't going back.

TKH
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Thanks Tony.
Sounds like a comprehensive test, I may change one to start.....we’ll see.
 
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tim said:
If I am not mistaken Evelio Macdonald has been mentioned as a factory coordinated builder of V22S equipment.
I have no personal experience with him but a few guys I know speak highly of him.
Click to expand...

I am not a factory coordinated builder, I have no affiliation with Vudoo, M.B. just happened to mention my name as presently building a couple. There is really nothing special about building one. There are several other good gunsmiths out there that can easily build this rifles, and make them shoot as good as a Turbo or a 2500.
The action is only a part of the rifle, if you don't have a killer barrel and the right ammo. the action alone will not make the rifle shoot better.
Evelio.
 
Amen!

Evelio said:
I am not a factory coordinated builder, I have no affiliation with Vudoo, M.B. just happened to mention my name as presently building a couple. There is really nothing special about building one. There are several other good gunsmiths out there that can easily build this rifles, and make them shoot as good as a Turbo or a 2500.
The action is only a part of the rifle, if you don't have a killer barrel and the right ammo. the action alone will not make the rifle shoot better.
Evelio.
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Experimentation is great. A lot of new things get tried all the time but we seem stuck on two major constants, Barrels and Ammo. An old Gunsmith told me years ago, regarding rifles and actions, " Once a gate is closed, its closed", meaning it's what's ahead of the bolt face that matters most. That continues to be still true, from what I've seen. Having said that, a lad I know pretty well has one of them new Walthers that can be shot either handed. His rifle will shoot a one bullet hole ten shot group without any twittering or tuners. He says they are re-writing the record books in Position shooting. He sent me a picture of the 10 shot group he had shot with his with Wolf ammo! I am impressed, to say the least. Be interesting to know what they seem to know.

Pete
 
Vudoo

Evelio said:
I am not a factory coordinated builder, I have no affiliation with Vudoo, M.B. just happened to mention my name as presently building a couple. There is really nothing special about building one. There are several other good gunsmiths out there that can easily build this rifles, and make them shoot as good as a Turbo or a 2500.
The action is only a part of the rifle, if you don't have a killer barrel and the right ammo. the action alone will not make the rifle shoot better.
Evelio.
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Evelio,

Thank you for replying to the thread. Glad to hear there are new builds in the making.

I'm always hoping there is something new, different, and perhaps better coming available.

If you have anything special about the new Vudoo builds please share it here.

I understand your customers may not want you to revealed their secret sauce but please share what you can.

I have a suggestion.

If you have the resources, and the opportunity, set up a slave stock so multiple actions can bolted to it. Take a barrel chamber it and use a coned breach.

Use your contraption to test various actions using the same barrel/ammo. You may have to use spacers between the action face.

Be sure to shoot each action enough you feel comfortable with your results.

It may be interesting.

TKH
 
tonykharper said:
Evelio,

Thank you for replying to the thread. Glad to hear there are new builds in the making.

I'm always hoping there is something new, different, and perhaps better coming available.

If you have anything special about the new Vudoo builds please share it here.

I understand your customers may not want you to revealed their secret sauce but please share what you can.

I have a suggestion.

If you have the resources, and the opportunity, set up a slave stock so multiple actions can bolted to it. Take a barrel chamber it and use a coned breach.

Use your contraption to test various actions using the same barrel/ammo. You may have to use spacers between the action face.

Be sure to shoot each action enough you feel comfortable with your results.

It may be interesting.

TKH
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Tony, nothing special about the Vudoo actions, the only thing that call my attention, is out of all 3 actions after swaping bolts in between all 3 of them, there was only .0005" difference in the dimension taken from the face of the action to the face of the bolt where the back of the case fits ( headspace - .043" ) pretty impressive.
So far I completed one rifle, and started testing with the 13 and 14 lbs. springs no FTF, and no change in the accuracy, the firing pin impact was on the edge of the rim, but still good accuracy. I have new firing pins coming where the impact will be more away from the ream, so I won't do any more testing until I get them, probably early next week.
I do like the way you can change springs in a few minutes with no tools or jigs required. Also no modifications have been made to the action except trying different firing pin springs.
As far as the test you suggested, using the same stock but different actions same barrel will not work, the 2500 has a inverted recoil lug than when properly bedded, will stick out on the stock, and will not allow the Turbo action to fit flat on the stock, the Vudoo, forget it, it is a totally different foot print.
Now I can test all 3 of the Vudoo actions in the same stock, and using the same barrel but I don't know what that would prove. Explain what you are looking for ??
Evelio.
 
Evelio said:
Tony, nothing special about the Vudoo actions, the only thing that call my attention, is out of all 3 actions after swaping bolts in between all 3 of them, there was only .0005" difference in the dimension taken from the face of the action to the face of the bolt where the back of the case fits ( headspace - .043" ) pretty impressive.
So far I completed one rifle, and started testing with the 13 and 14 lbs. springs no FTF, and no change in the accuracy, the firing pin impact was on the edge of the rim, but still good accuracy. I have new firing pins coming where the impact will be more away from the ream, so I won't do any more testing until I get them, probably early next week.
I do like the way you can change springs in a few minutes with no tools or jigs required. Also no modifications have been made to the action except trying different firing pin springs.
As far as the test you suggested, using the same stock but different actions same barrel will not work, the 2500 has a inverted recoil lug than when properly bedded, will stick out on the stock, and will not allow the Turbo action to fit flat on the stock, the Vudoo, forget it, it is a totally different foot print.
Now I can test all 3 of the Vudoo actions in the same stock, and using the same barrel but I don't know what that would prove. Explain what you are looking for ??
Evelio.
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Thank you for the reply. I have not had the opportunity to exam the Vudoo BR/F class action so any info you share helps.

I have watched the videos and saw pics but they only provide very basic info.

It is good to know consistency between the actions is that good.

This allows Vudoo to send customer barrels threaded, chambered, with extractor cuts so they can be used without additional gunsmith work.

The original Flash turbos varied quite a bit as did the 10Xs actions. These actions were made in small lots and the actions were pretty close within the same batch but varied from batch to batch.

When Bill Hingardner and Di Orio obtained Turbo and began making the "New" version they made the actions with such consistency barrels with the same tenon dimensions would fit all Turbo actions equally well.

I recall testing barrels with Bill and Tony Boyer at Piney Hill. Bill had 20 barrels threaded and chambered. We used three New Turbo actions and each of us shot all the barrels.

We even shot each action with the barrels we selected.

After that test I learned testing the barrels as we did was not the panacea I had hoped it to be.

To quote Ivan Wells "it is the total package".

Stiller actions have always had this level of consistency. Stiller can send you a barrel and it will fit 100% of the time.

Being able to take down the bolt without tools is a neat and useful idea. I assume that is accomplished with a bayonet mount?

As for my suggest: as they would say in NY "FORGET ABOUT IT". It was just any idea.

Please continue to share what you can about the new rifle builds. The great thing about the Vudoos it seems younger guys are buying them.

We really need new shooters, particularly younger shooters.

TKH
 
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1813benny said:
The Walther rifle previously referred to is most likely the KK500. The following is a link for reference: http://https://carl-walther.com/sport/products/p/2855275E

Regards,
ken
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Ken,

Typical German engineering. Very complicated, but outstandingly presented.

With all our worries about vibration/tune I wonder how these react.

I would guess if you find one that works, it works well, but if you have a problem, finding the solution may be a difficult road to travel.

TKH
 
Interesting thread Tony. I'd almost forgotten how irritating trying to get the "Just right" firing pin shape and spring rate can be. But, it makes a difference, if it's right. Good luck the coming season.
 
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