New Model 70 help, please?

G

Gary O

Guest
Well, I just returned from the range where I was breaking in a newly manufactured Model 70 30-06 Featherweight. This was the maiden voyage for this rifle and I am concerned about the following: I was just trying to get my scope close while getting accustomed to the trigger. I had a factory box of Super X Power Max Bonded 180 grainers. This was also going to provide me with brass for future reloading. Right from the start this rifle was all over the place; more like patterns than groups. I eventually pulled the front rest position back to just under the scope object bell and the horizontal stringing settled down and left me with 3 inch vertical stringing shooting only 3 shot groups. At that point I was about finished with the first box of ammo when I noticed that the fired brass was showing heavy sooting on the necks and a black ring around the fired primers. What’s up with that? Isn’t that classic high pressure sign? Anyway, I was feeling kind of dopey for not noticing these signs sooner. What say you folks? Any suggestions? Thanks…
 
I spent some time with the folks at Sierra Bullets (Robert). Long story short, of course we spoke at length about possible rifle/rings/mounts issues, but really settled on a couple of avenues of concerns to investigate. One is the rifle itself. According to them Featherweights are just plain finicky and it takes time to find rifle chow it likes. 3 shot groups make real sense with this type of hunting rifle. Let the barrel cool down between groups. Shoot some moderate H4350 loads with a good bullet that has been handcrafted with care and set the shoulder back .001 on brass that has been fired in that rifle. Use CCI large rifle primers; they are actually a little larger in diameter and have been known to offer a better seal when brass has become stretched or work hardened after a bunch of firings. We’ll see: what say you?
 
I'm confused.

Sooty necks is generally a sign of too low pressure.

Ring-around-the-primer is generally a sign of very high pressure. This normally means that pressure is so high as to immediately expand the primer pockets allowing gas leakage around the primer. This leakage will quickly cut a ring in your boltface. Primers should just FALL out or be pressed out with light pressure. New primers should seat loosely with very little resistance......IF THESE SIGNS ARE PRESENT then yes you had high pressure.

If you had this high pressure with factory loads you should immediately contact the mfgr to let them know.

regarding all the other ideas, opinions and advice I offer no comment.
 
Pay attention to Gary's suggestions. I owned a Win M70 Feather Weight for a good many years and through careful hand loading techniques was able get the grouping down to just over the .600 range. This was a 243 and its favorite load was with a 95gr Nosler Ballistic tips in front of 45gr of 3031 powder. Bedding the rifle and free floating the barrel made a world of difference also.

Good luck with yours....virg
 
vicvanb said:
I say...If you had listened to our advice in reponse to your May 31st post and bought a Pre-64 M70 you would not be having these problems.
Click to expand...

Contrary to popular mythology, not "every" pre-64 rifle was the paragon of rifle excellence. Some of them were of abysmal quality.

I have one of the latter, a 1953 Model 70 Supergrade, .30-06, that shot like crap - 2.5 to 3" groups were as good as I could achieve with it. When I investigated I found, as you can see from this picture, the recoil lug didn't touch anyting, the bottom of the receiver immediately around the magazine was all that was touching, the magazine box was taking the recoil. The action screws were doing nothing but bending the action.

Before-4-CRS.jpg


A blind geriatric beaver with dull teeth could have done a better job of fitting the stock to the action than Winchester did. No wonder it didn't shoot. It came to me from my Dad via my brother in law. Selling it wasn't an option, or I definitely would have.

So I, <gasp>, actually worked on it. I floated the barrel (which required enlarging the barrel channel and getting rid of the barrel mounting screw), pillar bedded the receiver to the stock, adjusted the trigger a bit, and the groups came down to an inch or less. More like this:

30-06150gHornadyFBSP-A-C-A-RS.jpg


I began to enjoy shooting it, so I further desecrated it and put a recoil pad on it. Then I went and killed a deer with it.

I may have the "only" example on the planet of the "Rifelman's Rifle" for which this is true, but I'd find that really hard to believe. I do believe mine is worse than average, but it's proof there were some that were as bad or worse than anything sold today.

That said, I like the feel of it now, and it has some sentimental value, and it will work for deer hunting here on the farm, so it will get used at least during deer season.

Fitch
 
Your experience was similar to mine. The Model 70's I had over the years were average performers, stocks did not fit me that great, and accuracy was in the 2-3" range...
 
My FN mod. 70 is starting to crack behind the recoil lug. Ive shot some good groups with it and some 3 inchers with it. I ve wrote down all my groups and looking back it seems to like em a couple grains under max. Im gonna call FN about that crack see what they say. That cant be helping my groups.
 
FWIW, that crack should be easy to fix. Good luck and I would repair your stock before it gets worse...interested in what FN has to
sy and how you are treated...
 
Well I took my 2nd trip to the range with my newly manufactured Winchester Model 70 30-06 Featherwieght. This time I cleaned the bore down to the bone with Wipe Out; bought a new box of ammo Power Points, Checked over the bases, rings and scope; torque the action screws to 35 inch pounds; and used the old business card under the barrel trick. I know it’s kind of dopey to change so many things at once, but I was using the counsel I received here and 30 years of shooting and hand loading. The results were that my 3 shot groups shrank to 1.75 inches with some vertical stringing (still). I doubt that this rifle will ever shoot 5 shot groups in under an hour. It still begins to wander after the 2nd shot. I will begin my hand loading tomorrow. Hopefully things will improve more before I go back to Africa in April, 2012. Thanks to everyone who actually offered constructive help based on their experience..
 
frwillia said:
Contrary to popular mythology, not "every" pre-64 rifle was the paragon of rifle excellence. Some of them were of abysmal quality.

I have one of the latter, a 1953 Model 70 Supergrade, .30-06, that shot like crap - 2.5 to 3" groups were as good as I could achieve with it. When I investigated I found, as you can see from this picture, the recoil lug didn't touch anyting, the bottom of the receiver immediately around the magazine was all that was touching, the magazine box was taking the recoil. The action screws were doing nothing but bending the action.


A blind geriatric beaver with dull teeth could have done a better job of fitting the stock to the action than Winchester did. No wonder it didn't shoot.
Click to expand...

I have owned a bunch of factory original Pre-64 M70 Super Grades and they were all inletted well with the recoil lug properly bedded against the wood. Winchester test fired all of the M70s (except at the very end of production in 1963) and they didn't leave the factory unless they passed inspection and acceptable accuracy tests.

When Pre-64s became highly collectable and the price of Super Grades went very high, a lot of "Super Grades" were made by putting together guns from parts. When Winchester liquidated M70 parts in the late 1970s a lot of Super Grade stocks came to market. I recall seeing quite a few at gun shows. Many Standard Rifles were upgraded--all you needed was a stock and floorplate. This was especially true of rare calibers. Plus, a lot of 30-06 original Super Grades had their parts switched with other, more rare calibers. The incentive to do this was strong as Super Grades sold for much more than Standards. Some of this upgrading and parts switching resulted in very poor wood to metal fit. I've seen quite a few of these guns.

If your Super Grade looks like it was inletted by a beaver, I suspect it is one of the put together guns. Those "Super Grades" outnumber factory original Super Grades about 2 to one. The originals are rare birds.

Again, M70s made before 1963 did not leave the Winchester factory unless they passed inspection and test firing. Of course, they were not consistently one MOA rifles--but their accuracy could be improved with a little tweaking, at times, just the addition of a business card shim under the barrel at the forend, and adjusting the trigger to a 3 pound pull.
 
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I believe it is a waste of time to shoot any rifle for accuracy that isn't properly bedded, barrel floated and trigger tuned.

Then when working up your loads use only two rounds per group, because if two rounds aren't close, shooting another won't help.

And yes if you get two grouping together at an acceptable velocity then try three.

BTW if it were a Remington I would borescope the barrel before ever shooting it and maybe not a bad idea with any factory rifle. What you would be looking for is missing rifling and not how smooth the bore is.

BTW many, many years ago when I first started reloading my first rifle was a Remington 7 Mag. Beside my suggestions above it took me 300 rounds down range to find a tack driving load. Just plain nuts! I still have the rifle and it still shoots; however all my big game rifles are Model 70's and they all wear Kriegers and they all shoot better then great!
 
It seems to me that trying to make a rifle shoot by buying a box of factory ammo, and then switching to another kind of factory ammo, is going the long way around, and that buying ammo to get brass is a bit expensive. Buy some good brass, and the rest of the necessary components. I would say that if I were going to work up loads for the same rifle, that I would pick up a Lee collet die, a Redding body die, and a Forster seater. While that was all on its way, I would float the barrel, and bed the action, and check my work with a dial indicator. I would also consider what game I would be shooting (if that was my purpose) and probably pick a good 150 gr. bullet to work with. A 150 gr. Sierra Game King would probably be fine. Based on my experience with factory rifles, I would stay away from BTs until I had it working with FBs. I would also look into the trigger pull weight, probably replacing the spring, and readjusting, if the newest triggers have that feature. The other thing that I would look at is parallax, some perfectly good game scopes are not adjustable for this, and if I were using one of these, I would want to determine if it was possible to find the distance that the parallax was set for, after first carefully focusing the eyepiece for the sharpest reticle image, against a featureless background, based on brief glances between adjustments. Once my bedding and floating were done and verified, I would start my reloading by determining if it was possible to touch the rifling with a seated bullet,a nd if the resultant loaded round would fit in the magazine. If it was possible, but would not fit, I might still do my workup single loading, with OAL adjusted so that the bullet marked the bullet slightly (probably .006 to .010 longer than touch) to give the rifle its best chance to show me what it could do. and then if it would perform that way, do a two shot test for several different amounts of bullet jump, in increments of .005 (at first) and then refine from there. If the barrel is rough, I would probably clean copper with the strongest Montana Extreme product, being careful to patch it all out, and follow with a little light oil and some dry patches after that. Light rifles in calibers that kick, need to be shouldered solidly, and your rifle will probably do its best with the front bag a couple of inches in front of the action. Balance is not an issue, when you are holding the rifle. Don't pull down with your hold; it can cause vertical. Make darn sure that your rear sling swivel stud does not engage your rear bag at any time either before or during recoil. That should get you started.
 
Excellent advice from Boyd. I prefer Patch Out for cleaning the bore, but there are several good cleaning solvents on today's market. Beware, though--some are pretty toxic. When a saturated brush leaves the muzzle it acts like an atomizer. You don't want to breathe that fine mist.
 
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