New guy with new rifle questions dies, brass, necks etc

E

eastwood

Guest
I have been wanting all my life to try BR (100-200), and just purchased a used Farley, RBLPRE , 21 inch Kreiger .237 4 groove 14 twist barrel. That is the info I have on it, it was posted on a forum for sale some may have seen it. I purchased it with needing a new barrel in mind, but plan to shoot like it is just to see, and I need to get accustomed to this type of rifle, shooting, loading.

I need some direction on brass, dies etc. With the neck .237 I assume the best way to go is get 220 russian brass to fireform that way I have an idea of the chamber dimensions I'm dealing with as I don't have any brass etc this is my first ppc any advice will be helpful. Use a fast burning pistol powder and seal the end with wax is the way I plan to fireform.

Dies, I can't imagine even getting dies before I fireform some cases I have never used arbor type dies (wilson type) but read that most BR prefer the wilson type. I like regular Forester dies better than any I have tried as far as a regular reloading press. I have 3 single stage press's (one is a Foreste Co-Ax that does well) before spending money on dies if you were starting out what would you purchase, and any tips on sending the fireformed brass in what condition (neck turned, etc) would help me.

Neck turning, I have a lathe I have used before it's a bit of a pain, but in general that was for sporter rifles that I found no improvement in turning necks. I have the tooling, neck tubing micrometers etc I don't see a problem turning necks to a diameter once I know the diameter of course.

I'm sure this forum sees many post like this, I searched the forum finding some info, but if anyone can give me some pointers I would appreciate it. I'm one step closer to being able to shoot competitive.

Thanks, Clint
 
Your necks are not 237. They are more likely 262 . As for dies send a fire form case to harrels for a sizing die. Learn to shot the barrel on that gun before you put a new barrel on it . It my shoot just fine. Ask the fellow your buying from about neck size . 262 in 6ppc is most popular. As for powder get you some LT32 and tune. You need to read Tony boyers book it will help a lot best read for shooting BR .
 
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afrench I'm in Georgia ( North East area)

ajshooter thank you for the info, I admit I don't know the neck diameter, I assumed .237, but read that wrong that would be the bore diameter I misread/posted that.

I copied the info and posted what I had, I understand .244" bullet wouldn't work in a .237neck I made a darn good mistake on my first posting.
 
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eastwood said:
I have been wanting all my life to try BR (100-200), and just purchased a used Farley, RBLPRE , 21 inch Kreiger .237 4 groove 14 twist barrel. That is the info I have on it, it was posted on a forum for sale some may have seen it. I purchased it with needing a new barrel in mind, but plan to shoot like it is just to see, and I need to get accustomed to this type of rifle, shooting, loading.

--did you get any fired brass with this barrel? that would help you determine what the neck diameter is fairly easily. neck diameter of the barrel you have now is one of the more important things you need before making brass.

I need some direction on brass, dies etc. With the neck .237 I assume the best way to go is get 220 russian brass to fireform that way I have an idea of the chamber dimensions I'm dealing with as I don't have any brass etc this is my first ppc any advice will be helpful. Use a fast burning pistol powder and seal the end with wax is the way I plan to fireform.

-- Lapua 220 Russian get my vote. Norma would work if your neck is .265 or smaller. i'm not a fan of pistol powder to fireform. i just neck up the brass, turn and fire in a used up barrel chambered with my reamer.

Dies, I can't imagine even getting dies before I fireform some cases I have never used arbor type dies (wilson type) but read that most BR prefer the wilson type. I like regular Forester dies better than any I have tried as far as a regular reloading press. I have 3 single stage press's (one is a Foreste Co-Ax that does well) before spending money on dies if you were starting out what would you purchase, and any tips on sending the fireformed brass in what condition (neck turned, etc) would help me.

-- most of the folks i know use a arbor type press for seating. wilson is very popular, JLC and other make nice seaters too. any of the presses you have will work for FL sizing. i use a RCBS partner press.

if you have someone make a FL die, you'll need to fire it at least a couple of times. Harrell's is what i use and have been happy with their product. just send 2 or 3 fired cases to Harrell's and they will mail you back a FL die.

http://harrellsprec.com/index.php/products/full-length-die

Neck turning, I have a lathe I have used before it's a bit of a pain, but in general that was for sporter rifles that I found no improvement in turning necks. I have the tooling, neck tubing micrometers etc I don't see a problem turning necks to a diameter once I know the diameter of course.

-- neck turning can be accomplished on a lathe. if you are comfortable with that, have at it. i use the 21st century turner. i like to have 2-3 thou clearance on loaded rounds with my .269 neck.

I'm sure this forum sees many post like this, I searched the forum finding some info, but if anyone can give me some pointers I would appreciate it. I'm one step closer to being able to shoot competitive.

Thanks, Clint
Click to expand...

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Eastwood

You came to the right forum for information. Get to know the benchrest shooters within your region; there are some really good ones. Attend as many matches as you can if only to visit, watch, ask intelligent questions and get to know the other shooters. Most of them are more than willing to help you get started on the right track. There's a lot to learn but it's a fascinating study. Best of luck with your journey. :D

Gene Beggs
 
afrench no brass or dies with the rifle. I asked, and hoped for just even a few brass, but none. Thank you for the information.

Gene Beggs, I will do that I will probably ask a dumb question along the way just as I have posted about the .237 neck...
 
[QUOTE Gene Beggs, I will do that. I will probably ask a dumb question along the way just as I have posted about the .237 neck...[/QUOTE]

There are no dumb questions if asked politely and sincerely. :) The top ten Hall of Fame benchrest shooters at one time, knew nothing about extreme rifle accuracy.

As a rural Texas kid who grew up around farm and ranch folks, my interest in guns and hunting was natural and began at a very early age. My Dad gave me my first BB gun when I was six years old. Progressing through pellet guns, .410 and 20 gauge shotguns, then 22 long rifles and finally a Springfield 1903 30-06, I fancied myself a 'rifleman.' I read the writings of such greats as Jack O'Connor, Elmer Keith and all the other hunting and shooting editors. I thought I knew something about shooting and rifle accuracy! :cool: Wrong!

My first contact with formal benchrest shooting was in 1987 at the Midland Shooters Range in Midland, Texas. At the time, I guess I didn't really appreciate what a hotbed of benchrest activity and expertise we were blessed with here in this area. I soon learned that we had some of the finest gunsmiths, barrel makers and shooters in the world, right here in my own backyard. :eek: Thanks to the help of Charles Huckeba, Cecil Tucker, Brad Calhoun, Mike Conry, Harold Broughton, Howard Scott, Leon Gass and others too numerous to mention, my learning curve was pretty steep. :)

My first rifle, by James Messer, was built on a Hall action with a Hart 13.5 twist barrel. I was unusually lucky with that first rifle; it was a real hummer! :cool: With the help and coaching from some of the best in the business at the time, I was doing some impressive shooting during my first year of competition. :cool: I thought, "'ell, there's nothing to this. In no time at all, I'll be top gun at the Midland Shooters Range." Wrong! :rolleyes:

Several people tried to tell me what an exceptional barrel I was lucky enough to start out with and suggested that I remove it and put it back and save it for more important matches but, I foolishly ignored their suggestions. I attributed my fine first year shooting to exceptional skills, vast knowledge and experience with all things shooting wise. :rolleyes: Wrong. :rolleyes: It would be several years before I obtained another barrel that shot like that first one. But I sure learned a lot during those years.

Second only to flying, and a close second at that, the study of benchrest and extreme rifle accuracy has been the most fascinating thing I've ever pursued. Talent and expertise? Benchrest has it in spades! :D Machinists, gunsmiths, barrel makers, tool and die makers, rocket scientists, inventors, engineers, precision riflemen; we got 'em! :D And you will find a great number of them hang out right here on BR Central.

I hope you enjoy your pursuit of benchrest!

Sincerely

Gene Beggs, The Wind Probe man.
 
Dies

A lot of good people in around the N.E. Ga area that shoot BR,, you probably have already met some.. If not, go to the first match @ River Bend,, or the next match. I guarantee someone there will help you along. I'm sure someone on this forum will have some dies for sale , or even for loan.. I wouldn't go head over heals w/expensive dies until you find out if barrel is good/competitive. I saw the rifle on the forum and you got a great deal as far as I'm concerned. I'd almost bet,, the rifle will produce a group in the .1's. Maybe not many ,, but you never know. You may have lucked up and got a hummer.
Take your rifle to the range and try it,,, w/powders,,, Lt 32,, VV 133,, AA 2015,, or even some H322 or 8208.. If you've
never owned or fired a PPC,, you'll probably be pleasantly surprised w/your first groups.. with some help from other shooters ,, you will soon find out how good your barrel is . 6mm 13.5 to 14 twist barrels are not hard to find . You can rebarrel @ any time. Other shooters in your area will help you decide the best dies to get,, as well as the great people on this forum. ( if I could see how to shoot anymore, I would have purchased that rifle)
The components are worth what you paid. Good shoot'n,,, HFV
 
Send me a PM or just say what you're location is. I may be closer than most and if so can help a bit. I'm years out of date but might have something to offer. Chattanooga is about an hour away from my house...well, it used to be a house until it turned into an old folks storage building.
 
wilbur

dont let that wilbur fella fool you.

if you can get near him, do it. if for no other reason that to say you met him.
 
First thing, is there anything stamped on the barrel, or where did you get the info on your first post? Your 237" is the common land diameter for a .243 (6mm) barrel. Your chamber neck diameter is PROBABLY .262". It could also be .263", .266", .268 or a few others. You will need considerably more chamber info, from a benchrest gunsmith or an experienced benchrest shooter before you start buying reloading stuff like dies, etc.


I.e. Do t tool up for THAT chamber till you know more about it. If you are going to shoot competitive benchrest you will want to standardize on dies, etc. and since you don't know the details of that chamber go slowly.


Edit- please don't let anything I, or others, wrote make you wonder about the 6PPC and your new rifle. This unique event is certainly not brain surgery, but it is not plug-and0play either. If you really like to shoot and really like to shoot tiny groups you have bought the introductory equipment to do just that. Its just that there is a lot that must be done to get to those tiny groups and meet some great people. But, you just can't go to Ace Hardware and buy ammo for a benchrest chambered PPC and start shooting.

One thing you can do immediately is buy a copy of Tony Boyer's book and start reading.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...aps&field-keywords=the+book+of+rifle+accuracy


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I'm sorry for the lack of reply, I had a good friend pass away.

I have not received the rifle as of yet, the seller said no neck diameter if stamped on the barrel, however seller said Gene Buckys is the gunsmith.

I'm going to try to edit mt location in the profile settings asap, also thank each of you for the information I'm going over it, and over it.

Thanks, Clint
 
I cant believe gene didnt put the chamber info on that barrel. A call to gene would be my first task. He may know who you got it from and what reamer he woulda used. One of the best in the sport he can probably help you obtain some of the equipment youll need to get started
 
I will check with Gene also, thanks to everyone who has offered help via PM, and this thread it has been a huge help.
 
I didn't receive that last PM you sent - Box was full @#^$$&.

Send it again if you will please Sir, as I cleaned out some messages.
 
Hi Clint,

About ten years ago I was in the same boat... bought out the entire setup of another who got in, tried it, had something happen in his life and decided it wasn't important.

I drove home grinning like a cat with a truckload of stuff. Had never heard of tight-necked chambers or Wilson hand dies with arbor presses. I didn't even know that stuff was in my back seat. I just knew that I already cared more about small groups than the guy I just left. I still do.

I shoot a lot... pushing 20 registered matches a year. And I'm still learning. If you play the game, you'll eventually talk to my wife Audrey who deposits your checks on behalf of the NBRSA and sends you a magazine with your name on it (and in it if the wind gods favor you). This is a sport for the long hall and we welcome you aboard.

------------

Now for some newbie advice (its still ringing in my ears, since as a 10 year player, I'm still a newbie compared to most)...

In the beginning the temptation will be to fill a large toolbox with every new gadget you hear of. Resist... that is the path of the devil. If you cannot resist, let me send you a long list of gadgets that I have for sale.

Find ONE person, preferably somewhat compatible and with a full trophy room, that you feel you can trust and listen to him. That will save you about 20,000 bullets of wasted time learning how the game works. Local if you're lucky, but not necessary. I got a lot of advice from guys 600 miles away when I was starting.

One gun. One of the truisms of the world is to "Beware the man with one gun -- he probably knows how to use it". This applies in benchrest as much as anything. New shooters often buy a HV, then add a LV, then a spare LV in case the other isn't shooting, and a railgun just cause they're cool. Two days of tuning before a match and they're still confused with what gun/load they should take to the line Saturday morning. One LV will cover everything until you know the wind gods on a first name basis.

For more practical tips, here are the some insights and answers to your original question:

About 95% of short range BR competition is shot with a 6PPC, and 90% of that is with a tight neck .262 chamber. Other things work but this is likely what every mentor will know, whether they currently shoot it or not. If your new rifle is thus configured, you are already in the majority.

Turning necks in't a big deal, lots of ways to do it with a lathe or neck turning tools. Nearly 100% of our brass start life as a .220 Russian case by Lapua. For a .262 neck, brass turned down to a wall thickness of about .0081 to .0084 is pretty standard. You'll be safe using most of the bullets available. Jack Neary, a Hall of Famer, tells a story that ends with "cut'm thin to win", so I use .0081. If your time is valuable, you can buy pre-turned brass from several folks -- Ron Hoehn of St Louis is probably the most well-known vendor.

The second most important piece of your equipment is your resizing die. If you don't have one, Harrel's Precision (or several other vendors) can set you up with one for your chamber. Don't get too hung up on a perfect die for this first barrel, since barrels don't last forever. Buy your own reamer. Then get a die to match your chambers cut with your reamer. The combination will work for as long as you shoot. Your mentor will understand this.

Your sizing die will have a neck bushing it. If you have a .262 neck chamber, then you'll probably only ever need .257 and .258 bushings. Experiment bigger or smaller, but remember the first point above. (I got a dozen barely used bushings to sell). You should start to see a pattern here: stick with the standard .262 neck, you get proven recipes, well stocked vendors, equipment interchangeability when you get to the shoot, and people who can help you troubleshoot with their own well-stocked toolboxes.

A good powder measure and micrometer-topped seating die round out the important stuff. I have a Jones measure, and Wilson and JLC seaters (dual seaters, along with a half dozen resizers, are part of my large-toolbox syndrome) - I got by with one for a long time, now I carry extras -- just in case (I may need ballast for a submarine some day).

Primers: Fed 205/205M is used by 95% of us. Bullets: Lots of awesome bullet vendors: Berger and Bart are big scale, there are plenty of guys who only sell a few thousand per year that are equally good. Your mentor will have a favorite, try them and see how they work for you. All are reasonably priced. Powder: N133 has been the reigning champion for a decade or so, but lots of good shooters have won with about anything you can stuff in a PPC case. More important to buy a lot (20-30+pounds!) of one thing and learn to shoot it than to have a dozen jugs but not know how each one likes to be run. I remember passing on a deal to buy 44# kegs of N133 10 years ago -- how I regret that decision today.

28.4 to 28.6 gr of N133 behind most any 65-68 BR bullet jammed into the lands has the potential to put you in the top half of any match you go to. It really isn't any more complicated than that. As Grandpappy said, "The rest is just fiddlin'".

Rod
 
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