Need Help With a Tuner
- Thread starter Hunter
- Start date
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Jerry, not saying I'm right, but I can't agree with the whole premise that you describe. As the barrel warms, it would already lengthen where the tuner is. That's at least part of what tuners are correcting for and would imply to go even longer would be the wrong direction. Also, with the correct weight for the barrel, 40 degrees seems great but in use, I've shot at the same tuner setting over that same temp swing with little to no change in tuner settings. I'm guessing your testing is on a rimfire too. All barrels vibrate without regard for what is fired in them at their respective frequency and amplitude at a given temp, but rimfire is slower, obviosly, which seems to be less sensitive to the steel temp changes but more sensitive to internal ballistics issues. Please elaborate on how your tuner achieves this. I'm very interested in learning more about the concept and I'm sure you've thought it all out.
Boyd Allen
Active member
I am not Jerry, but here is a thought. I have been told that rimfire tuner settings repeat every few thousandths, which would seem to suggest that when temperature lengthens a barrel slightly, that you could go either longer or shorter to find a sweet spot, given that any out of tune setting has an in tune setting on either side of it.
Jerry H
Different Drummer
Virtually all the tuners I have experimented with have pretty much functioned the same except this one. It exhibited some things that none of the others did. That is why I have messed with it so much over the last several months. Considering there are potentially several areas in the motion of a barrel such as the peak or valley transition and their respective pre or post ramps, I suspect this design stays in the ideal length better as adjusted by the temperature expansion rate of aluminum. I have heard people say that they never have to move their tuner, but my testing showed it has to be changed rather than changing lots when the rifle is not shooting well as is the common practice in RF.
mwezell
Mike Ezell
I agree with all of that Jerry. Have you tried it on a center fire also?
Comment sorta but not germane to the thread... I put an ezell tuner on my gun today for the first time. Shot low and to the left. 4Th target. So I had already put 60 rounds on targets. Made 4 scope tweaks and proceeded to finish the last card. Best card the gun has shot. (4 previous cards with old dried out tenex so I don't count them) Today was shooting Center-X
Brand new gun.
I'm having fun.
Brand new gun.
I'm having fun.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Some info on the Hensler style tuner. In 2005 the IBS had not officially approved or disapproved tuners but they had decided that as long as a tuner would fit inside the dimensions of a HV's barrel maximum dimensions a tuner would be "allowed".
With Jim Bordens assistance I built a tuner that was about 6.5" long, about 7/8" diameter and had a bore of about 0.590". It was mounted on a threaded barrel and held in place by a tapered edge locking sleeve. I shot it in the IBS Nationals at Fairchance that year and it worked just like other tuners EXCEPT any time it was adjusted the POI would change, sometimes as much as an inch at 100 yards.
So it was adjust, shoot a couple of times to let it settle in, then test that setting for accuracy. Certainly not the best, but it allowed me to have shot the entire 2005 season using barrel tuners. Possibly a first for centerfire benchrest.
.
With Jim Bordens assistance I built a tuner that was about 6.5" long, about 7/8" diameter and had a bore of about 0.590". It was mounted on a threaded barrel and held in place by a tapered edge locking sleeve. I shot it in the IBS Nationals at Fairchance that year and it worked just like other tuners EXCEPT any time it was adjusted the POI would change, sometimes as much as an inch at 100 yards.
So it was adjust, shoot a couple of times to let it settle in, then test that setting for accuracy. Certainly not the best, but it allowed me to have shot the entire 2005 season using barrel tuners. Possibly a first for centerfire benchrest.
.
Boyd Allen
Active member
Jerry,
My early Schmidt tuner (no rubber or brass) the Buckys tuner, and at least one other design that I can think of are split along the length of their threads, so that clamping screws exert pressure along their length. Given your experience (Thanks for sharing it.) and that rules have changed so that tuner profile is no longer an issue, do you think that this feature is a better approach than a lock ring or nut as far as tuner stability is concerned?
Boyd
My early Schmidt tuner (no rubber or brass) the Buckys tuner, and at least one other design that I can think of are split along the length of their threads, so that clamping screws exert pressure along their length. Given your experience (Thanks for sharing it.) and that rules have changed so that tuner profile is no longer an issue, do you think that this feature is a better approach than a lock ring or nut as far as tuner stability is concerned?
Boyd
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Boyd, I don't think the method of attachment is critical as long as the barrel bore is not effected. I can take a clamp-on tuner and tighten it to where it will not move with recoil, then tighten it another 15-20 inch/pounds and feel a definite obstruction running a lead slug through.
With a Kelbly style barrel vise it doesn't take much tightening at all to literally stop a barrel slug. This tells me that any addition, like a tuner, the barrel should be slugged before and after adding a tuner regardless of how it is attached.
Hope this helps.
.
Boyd Allen
Active member
Good point. Yes it does. Personally, it seems to me that large clamping surfaces and light pressure would be the way to go. as well as a large thread diameter.
M
mks
Guest
Exactly. Now if instead of extending beyond the muzzle, the tuner extended back toward the breech, it would tend to self-compensate for temperature. Not sure I have ever seen such a tuner, but it might be worth a try. The torque on the muzzle would be opposite, which means it would help with muzzle angle compensation during the upswing of the muzzle, rather than the downswing. This may have some advantages.
Skipping from one tuning window to the next doesn't sound like a way to make reverse compensation work. A temperature change halfway in between the tuning windows always puts you in an anti-tuned window.
Doc Dodgen's brother in law, can't think of his name, shot about a jillion shots trying to determine what the tuner on his rimfire rifle actually did. He wrote about it but wouldn't allow me to post his writing until he was finished. That said, he never "finished", or rather wouldn't give me permission to post the info. It was a pretty good write up as it was and I remember the graph showing group sizes as he turned the tuner. The graph of group sizes as the tuner was turned in the direction of making the barrel longer looked like a converging wave. As the tuner was screwed further (the barrel became longer) the peaks became smaller. It appeared from his graph that if he screwed the tuner to its final length he would have the best setting. I don't remember if he was using one lot of ammo but it appeared that he was. It didn't seem that cash money was of any importance to that crowd of two.
As an aside comment (pretty sure all my comments are such), I tried to buy that rifle he was shooting but no deal! It was a pretty good rifle indeed.....
Bob Something I think his name was...somebody help me out here.
As an aside comment (pretty sure all my comments are such), I tried to buy that rifle he was shooting but no deal! It was a pretty good rifle indeed.....
Bob Something I think his name was...somebody help me out here.
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Wonder who ended up with Doc's rimfire rail. At the last NBRSA rimfire Nationals several shooters tried to get Doc to sell it to them. Geraci offered him a bunch of money for it.
(Bob Strickland?)
.
Gene Beggs
Active member
Good Discussion!
Like Rod Brown said earlier, I'm always happy to see a lively discussion about tuners.
There has been a lot of progress made in recent years and we continue chipping away at nature's secrets about how tuners work and how to use them. I haven't said much lately but I'm listening and enjoying the discussion. There's a lot of experience and expertise at work here. Guys, thanks for sharing.
Sincerely,
Gene Beggs
Like Rod Brown said earlier, I'm always happy to see a lively discussion about tuners.
There has been a lot of progress made in recent years and we continue chipping away at nature's secrets about how tuners work and how to use them. I haven't said much lately but I'm listening and enjoying the discussion. There's a lot of experience and expertise at work here. Guys, thanks for sharing.
Sincerely,
Gene Beggs
BlackwellADB
Al Blackwell
Gene Beggs
I also have enjoyed this thread. I have been using a tuner for over 10 years on 6PPC and was told it was a waist of time & effort by most of the top shooters who are somehow using them today, Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
As I said 10 years in & if you want to find out the the real concept of them talk to the man who wrote the post before this one. I have used it pretty much exclusively and it really works and employs the KISS theory.
Thanks to Gene for pioneering the idea.
Al
I also have enjoyed this thread. I have been using a tuner for over 10 years on 6PPC and was told it was a waist of time & effort by most of the top shooters who are somehow using them today, Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.
As I said 10 years in & if you want to find out the the real concept of them talk to the man who wrote the post before this one. I have used it pretty much exclusively and it really works and employs the KISS theory.
Thanks to Gene for pioneering the idea.
Al
jackie schmidt
New member
Back in the early to mid 2000's, we started having discussions on this very Web Site about why Tuners were not being used in Centerfire Benchrest.
The consensus was 1. They violated the barrel profile rule. 2. They were not needed because you had other options, i.e., powder charge, seating depth, neck tension, etc. 3. Added too much weight.
I started playing with one of my own design at the old Lake Houston Gun Club, and decided to approach Scott Hunter, the Gulf Coast Region Director, about placing an agenda item in our annual meeting to make Tuners legal for NBRSA Registered Competition.
There was a LOT of opposition. It was tantamount to Benchrest Heresy.
In the mean time, the IBS did approve a design, a real asinine one that said a Tuner had to still meet the barrel profile rules. I believe the idea was if they made it so restrictive and convoluted, nobody would bother. Not many did.
The NBRSA Gulf Coast Region passed my agenda item on Tuners and Scott did propose it to the NBRSA, and at the National meeting at Raton I gave a presentation as to what our thoughts were.
First, the Tuner would NOT have to be subject to the barrel taper rule. Second, it would be included in the weight of the Rifle. Third, the NBRSA would write up a rule governing the rules of adjustment. Many shooters did not want any adjustments at the line. The NBRSA came up with the rule pretty much as it is written now.
The NBRSA Board voted to have a trial year, and see how it went. In the mean time, I worked on my snubber Tuner and finalized that design. It caught the eye of a very famous shooter, and he then designed one of his own, which has become quite popular.
At the time, most shooters were stuck on the two piece design, because that is what Rim Fire used. I based my ideas on a one piece design that attached firmly to the barrel, with a generous surface contact, that was light enough to not cause weight problems.
At the Nationals in Kansas City that next year, the general membership voted to adopt the Tuner rule pretty much as we presented it. The vote was NOT unanimous.
Since then, many designs have come into being, and as was said, many shooters who campaigned against the whole thing are now using Tuners. Most shooter now wonder what all of the hullabaloo was about in the first place.
That is just a brief history as to how Tuners came to be adopted for NBRSA Registered Match Competition. If you have about 5 hours to kill, do a search back in the archives of this Web Site and read some of the knock down, drag out discussions were had over the whole thing with some pretty heated discussions over why we wanted to change things from the way they had always been done.
But I stuck to my Guns, (pun intended)
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