Need Help With a Tuner

Mike, we're saying the same thing. A barrel that is .900" at the muzzle is 2.82" in circumference. 2.82/32 = .088". I turn the tuner about a .1" on the circumference. I just don't have it marked on the tuner. Your tuner with 32 marks moves about .088" on the circumference. We are both making about the same amount of movement when making the adjustment. I start with the tuner at the back of the threads and then lock it down when I get it shooting best. Really doubt if I've even had to move it as much as a half turn probably at most a 1/4 turn to get it to shoot. Same exact thing you're saying. I just haven't been going on until it goes out of tune and comes back in.
 
By my math, 1/4 turn with a 36 tip thread is yielding .0069" of linear travel, Mike. As I said, mine have 32 tip and as small as 1 of the 32 marks of my tuner, which is equivalent to .00097" of liner travel, is readily apparent on target. That's a smidgen less than one thou on mine per mark and a smidgen under 7 thou in a 1/4 turn on your 36 tpi tuner. Unless my math is terribly wrong, we are not saying the same thing. Check my math..I could be wrong. You are moving your tuner about 7 times further than I am. Try smaller adjustments. I feel sure that is too large of an adjustment. Ahh..I just re read your post. Yes, .1 on the 36 tpi would be very near .088 on a 32. Sorry for the confusion.
 
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I don't know why I said .008, on a 36 TPI, the total advance on one complete turn is .0277, so 1/4 turn is just under .007 advance. As I said, that 1/4 turn can go from a dead horizontal tune to a full bullet hole worth of vertical.

I have been doing this for a long time, and what I have found is all a tuner will do is allow you to get the best out what ever a barrel has in it. It will not turn a mediocre barrel into a great barrel. There is a lot more to a competitive Benchrest tune than simply controlling barrel vibrations.

One of the things I have found out is a snubber tuner is superior to a regular tuner. The first tuners I used way back when did not have the snubber feature. I got the idea from watching Charles Huckabe wrap that lead tape around his rail gun barrel. As Gene Bukys says, the snubber widens the load window.

I can't say it does for a fact, As results are anecdotal.
 
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The rubber encorporated into the tuner gives it the snubber feature. It deadens the harmonics.

The rubber you see here is made from a hard rubber compound in bumpers on tugboats. I saw a chunk out, bore a hole in it, and press it onto the the tuner body with contact cement. I then chuck the tuner up and machine the rubber true.

http://benchrest.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=17291&stc=1&d=1453441142
 

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Mike, this is a failure to communicate. My tuner is a 32 tpi thread. I don't make a 1/4 turn adjustment. I make what in effect is a 1/32 turn per adjustment the same as yours. Measure the width between your marks and that's about the amount I turn my tuner per adjustment whether made off Jackie's pattern except with a 32 tpi thread or using Gene's tuner which also has a 32 tpi. When I'm talking a 1/4 turn or half turn its just stating that the barrel comes into tune before the tuner is ever even turned that much.
 
Mike Bryant said:
Mike, this is a failure to communicate. My tuner is a 32 tpi thread. I don't make a 1/4 turn adjustment. I make what in effect is a 1/32 turn per adjustment the same as yours. Measure the width between your marks and that's about the amount I turn my tuner per adjustment whether made off Jackie's pattern except with a 32 tpi thread or using Gene's tuner which also has a 32 tpi. When I'm talking a 1/4 turn or half turn its just stating that the barrel comes into tune before the tuner is ever even turned that much.
Click to expand...

Yes..sorry about that. I think I'm on the same page with you now. I'm glad to hear someone talk about how small the adjustments are, besides me. I hear a lot of people state that they make fairly large adjustments with their tuners and that it takes big movement to make a difference. IME, with lots of different makers tuners...this is simply not true. Like I said in my previous post, exactly how much a tuner needs to be moved varies a little bit based on tuner design and barrel stiffness, but with every combination, 1/4 turn would range from big...to huge. Again, the most common mistake i see with using tuners is people making too big of adjustments. Reference marks are nice to have but a depth mic or even a set of calipers will allow accurate movement of them.
 
Where can one get those adjustment stickers like the RAS tuners have you can stick on the barrel to have ref marks?
 
Something to consider when deciding on a strategy for adjusting your tuner is that some things are unavoidably changing as temperature increases throughout the day. Your barrel gets about 0.001" longer for each 10 F increase in temperature. And muzzle velocity increases by around 2 fps per degree F, so in the time it took the bullet to exit the muzzle at a given temperature, it has passed the muzzle by over 0.1" at a 10 F higher temperature. So even if you think you are leaving everything the same, your tuner is going out-of-tune, or at least moving in the tune window, as temperature changes.

Cheers,
Keith
 
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Go to a rimfire benchrest match. They sometimes have 2 or more tuners on their barrels.

A slight movement makes a difference. A full turn makes a difference. Several turns make a difference. Which position is best? Tuners...a fun attachment.

Jim Borden and I tried to tie environmental changes to adjustments using Kestrel 4000's. No such luck! For example, Density Altitude (air thickness) makes a difference but it is not a straight line function??



.
 
Richard said:
All I can say is if you are willing to devote ALOT of time on this stuff, they can work wonders.
A lot of the variables have been mentioned here. The big question is, Do you know what to do with them? I go to the line with complete confidence that I can find the tune quickly and keep it there. Most of the time I don't even shoot before the match starts.

Richard Brensing
Click to expand...

Just my opinion, based on my own match experience, shooters tend to over complicate the whole thing.
 
Jeez -- I love a LIVELY tuner discussion!

New tuners for me this year (sorry Mr Begg's) -- my new-to-me Nardini lathe won't cut a 28TPI thread, so I had to move on the 32TPI. Made a new set of knurled rings (ala Ralph) for the barrels I doing this winter.

I've gone full circle a couple times on the tuner thing and still believe they are a valuable tool -- it is the one thing you can still change when the clock is ticking and that block of loaded ammo just won't make two bullets touch.

To the OP (Hunter)... look up some of my posts on the subject from several years ago on this site. I've recorded tuner position versus wind/temp/humidity vs group shape on over 3200 sanctioned targets over 8 years and did a fair amount of analysis on it. Generally, I'm in the 'move-it' camp, and typically use the tuner to compensate for condition changes rather than tweaking loads or seating depths. The key (as mentioned in earlier threads) is small movements. My rule of thumb is about 1-1/4 thou (.0012-ish) per degree of temp change. On my 28tpi Begg's tuner this works out to 2 'clock numbers' for a 5 degree change.

Rod
 
If you are allowed sighters, it's so easy to use a tuner. You don't have to know all of the science and details to using them...That is way over complicating their use. I gave the example, in an earlier post, of 4 marks on my tuner taking the gun from completely in to completely out of tune. That is a real world example but in reality it's even less as I've never experienced the gun needing that much adjustment once tuned initially. In reality, I work within 2 marks or less to maintain tune...always. There's simply no way to get confused. If it doesn't shoot, move it 1 mark or less. If it gets worse you went the wrong way. If it gets better your either in or very close. You can fine tune from there if need be. Sighters are your friend. Once set, if the tuner is heavy enough, any change throughout the day are rarely needed but small when they are. It couldn't be much simpler.
 
Richard said:
Let me ask you this, do you use a tuner this way?? I'm all for things being simple.

From my experience, at practice and under match conditions it is simple to make the rifle do what I want. The only thing is it took thousands of rounds to get to that point.

I know what the rifles need if the bbl has changed temp, not just from ambient change but from shooting!! If you have shot a group and had to tune with the bbl hot, do you know where to put the tuner for a cool bbl?? Do you?? I can look at shots on the sighter and know exactly which way to go with the tuner, then go straight to the record.

You can poo-poo this stuff off if you want, but I'm just saying there is ALOT out there for the person willing to take the time to truly understand what a tuner can and will, do.

Richard Brensing
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Go back and read where I said......"there is a lot more to achieving a competitive Benchrest Tune than simply controlling barrel vibrations".
 
I agree Jackie,

tuners are just part of the equation, action tune, stock issues, rest issues, the list goes on and on.

I have been working under the assumption that all of those issues have been worked out.
If not, a tuner isn't going to make you agg.

Let me rephrase then: If you have a rifle that is competitive without a tuner, it has been easier in my experience to shoot well with a tuner.
I'll just let it go at that and you guys can hash it out.

Good luck to everybody this year!!

Richard Brensing
 
I shot a case (5000 rounds) of great RF ammo developing and testing this tuner. So far, it seems to maintain tune from 40 to 80 degrees in a 40 to 60 degree dew point range. It has been tested on multiple barrels and guns and seems to want the same tuner length irrespective of barrel brand , diameter, chamber, or length. I need to see what it will do in the summer weather yet, as I started this project this fall. There are now 2 new shooters (1-2 years), independently evaluating this and so far they have indicated it is better than the tuner they were using, having already shot their all time personal best scores in the first week of testing (2300-2400). It can't get any simpler than never having to readjust it, which is my goal.
 
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