Need for case annealing

I won't get into discussions about neck tension and pressure and such. That's a level of expertise I'm not qualified for. But, I will say that #1, one group isn't nearly enough to figure out what you need. #2- annealing isn't something you want to start until you have a handle on the other stuff. It's a good way to get a consistent shoulder bump, but you don't want to introduce another variable at this stage of the game.

YMMV,
Rick
 
There is more to it

The one most important thing is to be able to hold a bullet at a specific OAL which, with testing, will deliver one's best results. Since most of us don't have Hummers, one must then turn to how to make what they have shoot competatively. One way that works pretty well is to maintain exact OAL's measured where the bullet touches the lands.

I have been annealing for a number of years with a Ken Light machine. Properly annealed cases will hold bullets at the same tension for 4 or 5 firings.

Another issue is the condition of the inside of necks. They must be free of any residue to assuer consistent seating. It is best to polish them to a high luster. This will discourage carbon from forming and allow for very consistent loading of bullets.

It' very simple, it's impossible to load ammo that is too good.
 
Pete Wass said:
Another issue is the condition of the inside of necks. They must be free of any residue to assuer consistent seating. It is best to polish them to a high luster. This will discourage carbon from forming and allow for very consistent loading of bullets.

It' very simple, it's impossible to load ammo that is too good.
Click to expand...

Pete, What method do you use to polish the insides of your case necks? We clean ours every firing with a nylon brush before they go in the sizing die. This repeated use keeps them smooth, but Polished? no. After polishing do you size and measure your necks for concentricity, and or wall thickness changes?

Paul
 
I have a Honaday kit that with a little practice will anneal the cases really well. I seat bullets with a gauge and can see even minor differiences in seating pressure. I can see that after annealing the cases become a lot more even. The more times I shoot the cases before annealing the more uneven the pressures become. At least in long range competition, I can see a lot of differiences in groups with and without the same seating pressure. I'll keep annealing.
 
Take a worn bronze brush, thread in some Never Dull wool into the bristles and clean the inside of the necks. They come out nice.
 
Paul

pbike said:
Pete, What method do you use to polish the insides of your case necks? We clean ours every firing with a nylon brush before they go in the sizing die. This repeated use keeps them smooth, but Polished? no. After polishing do you size and measure your necks for concentricity, and or wall thickness changes?

Paul
Click to expand...

Hes retired. He has the time to do everything!!
 
trouble said:
I seat bullets with a gauge and can see even minor differiences in seating pressure.
Click to expand...

Have you ever measured seating force in unannealed cases that have been shot a lot, say 20, 30, 40 times? The reason I ask is that dead soft brass has a consistent yield stress and work hardened brass also has a consistent (higher) yield stress. Thus one would expect seating force to be consistent for newly annealed cases, and inconsistent for cases fired a few times, as you have found. But one would also expect seating force to become consistent again for cases fired a lot without annealing. Just wondering if you have seen this.

Thanks,
Keith
 
Boyd Allen said:
Pete,
What caliber and powder?
Boyd
Click to expand...

Boyd,

I Have had the same results with all the calibers I have tried the seating depth/exact OL with. Primarliy, I have used my 30 BR cases to determie what I have written above. There is no reason I can think of the cases or bullet size would matter at all. A close friend told me one of his shooting pals had polished the inside of the necks of hid AR ammo and had gotten better accuracy results for doing it.

It's very easy to do a simple test. Just polish the inide of 5 cases, neck size them with the same bushing you are using. Seat bullets in them and notice how smoothly the bullets seat. Measure the loaded rounds from close to where the bullet will touch the lands to the base of the case. Now, seat bullets into sized cases tht have some carbon on the inside of the necks. Seat bulletsin those cases, noting how the seating force is different then measure the OAL's the same way you did with the other 5. Report what you find.

I am assuming you will be using enough neck tension to where you will actually be able to feel a difference in seating. I typically use .004 with my 30's. I don't like pulling bullets out of loaded rounds inside the chamber, if you know what I mean.
 
pbike said:
Pete, What method do you use to polish the insides of your case necks? We clean ours every firing with a nylon brush before they go in the sizing die. This repeated use keeps them smooth, but Polished? no. After polishing do you size and measure your necks for concentricity, and or wall thickness changes?

Paul
Click to expand...

Hi Paul,

Polishing the inside of the necks should not take much material off the cases. You are only taking the patina off and I am betting it to be a few microns. I don't measure anything for concentricity. Whatever the sizing die gives me I use, what else can anyone do? Neck tension is our friend, after all :).

A friend and I bought some of the SS cleaning media with the intention of cleaning the carbon from inside our necks and cases. My partner in this venture has been doing all the cleaning. The first cleaning takes most of the carbon out of the inside of the cases and the second, after the cases have beeen fired a few times and need it again, takes the remainder of the carbon out. They are clean after the second cycle and the outides sparkling. The media roughes the ends of the necks a bit but I haven't been able to detect any ill effects on paper. He trimms his each time. He is using Never Dull on a used brush. I have been doing mine with 4#.0000 steel wool wrapped around a used brush. His method is better.
 
Last edited:
My original question was about annealing, but was prompted by varying bullet seating pressures.
After firing the other day, I took some neck measurements which I believe to be the source of the problem.
In thousandths:
8.9 to 9.1
8.9 to 9.1
8.6 to 8.7
8.8 to 8.9
8.8 to 9.0
8.6 to 8.8
9.1 to 9.2
9.0 to 9.1
8.7 to 8.9
8.7 to 9.0
8.5 to 8.8
9.1 to 9.2
 
fishbone said:
My original question was about annealing, but was prompted by varying bullet seating pressures.
After firing the other day, I took some neck measurements which I believe to be the source of the problem.
Click to expand...

The up to 7% variation you measured in neck thickness should cause up to 7% variation in seating force. If the variation in seating force you are finding is more than this, then something else is going on.

Cheers,
Keith
 
Because of the measurement variations, I ordered in fresh 100 rounds of brass.
My first time at neck turning produced way better numbers than above, with only the first pass, taking 0.004".
Two more passes to get the target wall thickness.
My PMA tools are working great, as I'm sure others do.
If they turn out as good as I expect, it will be a good test on setting pressure.
 
I will throw in my newbie experience, I screwed up my first batch of PPC brass by case hardening it, I was using a drill setup going fast with a tight mandrel.
My fired cases would barely hold a bullet. I was pulling bullets up in the case with my fingers at the bench & shooting, none of the OAL,s were the same. I was just trying to get rid of the crappy ammo I had loaded.
I was pleasantly surprised when it started grouping in 1's & 2's. This kind of threw out the idea of consistent OAL and neck tension out the door as far as I am concerned, at least in regard to a good benchrest rifle. I am sure a consistent cartridge would be better but I was very surprised by this experience.

Ed
 
Ed it is possible that you had both consistent OAL and neck tension.
Consistency is the main ingredient.
Example if your bullets were so far out that when you chamber them that they contact the lands and then push back into the case having only minor neck tension then you have sort of achieved both even by accident.
I have known a few shooters in the distant past that actually shot that way. So distant in fact I dont remember how well they shot, however it used to be something a lot of people did back in the day.
 
An aside on the neck turning...my friend Del Bishop turned all his necks by hand. Also, to check how sharp you cutter is, check the length of your cases before and after turning.
 
Vern, that makes a lot of sense, the rifling was setting the consistent OAL in this case.

Boyd, I learnt my lesson after messing up that brass. I now completely lube the inside of the neck and the mendral, in
The past I was only lubing the mendral. I still use the drill but run it at very slow speed.

Ed
 
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