n133 thrown charges at a match

[alinwa]

I'm confused! Many good shooters "throw and go" -- others want to weigh each load. Regarding Gene's statement above, what about when two of the 10-percenters create a .6 grain spread from the others? Also, I've read about many folks doing ladder testing in .3 grain increments. What's accomplished with such testing if your loads have a reasonable likelihood of a built-in error of +/- .3 grain, or, as Hal suggests, bullets will go in the same hole with a rather large spread? Also, I've read Gene's comments about "we can't be more than .6 grains in either direction out to tune!" What that says to me is that +/-.3 grains can represent the difference between in-tune and not in-tune -- which seems inconsistent with his statement above.

So, the question (assuming a good barrel and a good shooter): How much spread in ALL of the charges is acceptable to have confidence in your load?

You need to refine your question.....a lot. As it's stands it's not answerable on any clear terms.



With ANY factory rifle on the planet, this whole discussion is wasted.
With any short-range BR rifle capable of winning, this discussion is wasted
With ANY 1000yd rifle capable of winning, if you're not lissenin' you're losin'

At 600yd BR the jury's still out whether or not compensatory tuning is effective.....and without a deep understanding of compensatory tuning (read Gene Begg's, again. And again) this discussion is wasted......

In short, this entire issue of weighing charges is only relevant to that tiny percentage of shooters on this planet who WIN SCOPED BR MATCHES at ranges beyond 500yds....

That's scoped Bench Rest Matches. Nobody else can even see the difference, unless you're a girl. Maiden name Gallagher....

That doesn't change the fact that since I KNOW the results I will weigh anything from hunting to target, open sights or optics for long range. Since I KNOW that I can and do get single digit ES with weighed charges and I KNOW that I cannot get under 40fps ES with thrown charges, I choose to weigh a lot of loads. I weigh individual charges on hunting loads for the comfort of knowing that I can shoot a water table at any yardage.

But for 6PPC's and 30BR's shooting 100-200yds it's irrelevant.

And for normal people who don't know a water table from an end table, people who talk in "moa" and three-shot "groups"......it don't mean squat.

 

[CMaier]

hunter clear your inbox

 

[Andy Cross]

My 2 cents worth

I am back to throwing charges.

In my 30BR, the best scores I have shot were with thrown charges of 4198 out of my old, (1996), Bruno measure.

I use a Hensler in my 6PPC with 133. I have meticulously weighed each charge, and simply thrown them. I cannot tell the difference either on the target or over my Chronograph.

I have a Chargemaster. I have sat down with it in my office, weighed charges, and then checked them on my Denver Electronics TP153 Scale, which is very accurate. Guess what. If you throw 20 charges, the variation can be as much as .4 out of the Chargemaster. The resolution on their system is really not that accurate.

I also have a Lyman Electronic Range scale that does no better. You can put a case on it, zero it, Throw a charge and add powder as needed to get it exact, and it has about the same tolerance as the Chargemaster.

Unless you have a scale that has the resolution of this Denver unit, you are probably wasting a lot of time weighing charges.

First up I will quote a friend of mine who also comes from a science background. There are so many variables in the BR game and each one with it's own sub-system it's a miracle it works at all let alone as well as it does.
I too checked the RCBS and my Lyman against lab certified scales and came to the same conclusion. Consequently I throw charges at the range. Taking all the paraphernalia to use the electronics ain't worth the hassle.
Does this amount of charge variation matter. On it's own probably not. But variables tend to compound on one another in a manner where 1+1 begins equalling 3. They rarely null one another. For the time being I will reduce the number of variables where practical and put more time into reading those flags.

 

[Wilbur]

I watched Hunter load at a club match and he had his scale set up where the wind wouldn't affect it. I mentioned that he didn't have to weigh powder but he was doing that and getting the targets after each match as well...and still had time to load and be ready for the next go round. Hard to make an argument under those circumstances.....

Here's the deal...Hunter is probably going to weigh powder and I'm not. Nobody can convince either of us to change.

Last I knew...Larry Costa was weighing powder. Don't know if he still does but he was weighing powder back yonder when he lost as many as he won. That tells me that it doesn't matter given the huge number of variables involved (Andy said that) but it also tells me that it doesn't hurt anything to weigh powder.

Maybe at the Super Shoot, where the wind is different every time you go to the bench, that time would be better spent watching others shoot but I don't know how folks think...so I wrote "maybe".

 

[Mozella]

......... snip...........

And for normal people who don't know a water table from an end table, people who talk in "moa" and three-shot "groups"......it don't mean squat.

Is it possible to confuse a water line with a conga line?

 

[jackie schmidt]

I watched Hunter load at a club match and he had his scale set up where the wind wouldn't affect it. I mentioned that he didn't have to weigh powder but he was doing that and getting the targets after each match as well...and still had time to load and be ready for the next go round. Hard to make an argument under those circumstances.....

Here's the deal...Hunter is probably going to weigh powder and I'm not. Nobody can convince either of us to change.

Last I knew...Larry Costa was weighing powder. Don't know if he still does but he was weighing powder back yonder when he lost as many as he won. That tells me that it doesn't matter given the huge number of variables involved (Andy said that) but it also tells me that it doesn't hurt anything to weigh powder.

Maybe at the Super Shoot, where the wind is different every time you go to the bench, that time would be better spent watching others shoot but I don't know how folks think...so I wrote "maybe".

Larry is also making his own bullets, and doing his own gunsmith work. He is also meticulous on every aspect of this game.

I wish I had his dedication to detail that in many cases separates the really great Competitors from the rest of us.

 

[jim1K]

I have watch this thread and i see both sides of the issue. If a short range shooter is happy with throwing charges that is fine but take those same charges and try them at 300 yds. and see why you don't want to throw charges. You will soon see why short range doesn't shoot many 300 yds matches, the same with score the 30 has a hard time at 300. One thing in common maybe thrown charges and some wind added to the mix. Just maybe you will see why long range can hold +- 3" three to ten times as far all charges are preloaded and weighed to .01.. jim

 

[JerrySharrett]

I'm confused! Many good shooters "throw and go" --

So, the question (assuming a good barrel and a good shooter): How much spread in ALL of the charges is acceptable to have confidence in your load?

You are going to pay about $300 for a good Culver style measure and you WILL get about +/-0.3 grain variation. You will pay $300 for a Chargemaster and get about +/-0.1 variation. Either one can be a component of a winning setup. I.e. You can live with either.

How does that work? You have to shoot enough to know when you are in the center of a node. If you are then the +/-0.3 isn't going to hurt the tune, BUT, if you are on the high end and the drop goes up 0.3 you are out of tune. If you are on the low end and the drop goes down 0.3 you are out of tune. Think about that!


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[jim1K]

So what your saying is the variation in powder throwing is why you need a tuner, widen the node? jim

 

[Boyd Allen]

I think that this whole issue has come about because of 133 and the availability of an easy way to use weighed charges when loading at the range, the Chargemaster. Powders that are finer grained throw well enough that I do not think that weighing is required. Friends have told me that one of these in particular, LT32, has much wider nodes than they have experienced with 133, and that combined with being easier to throw to narrow variance would seem to eliminate the need to weigh...except for the experiences of shooters who have found that there are ambient conditions where its performance is exceeded by 133. So there we are, back at the issue of whether one can get away with throwing all charges. As Jerry has said, that may depend on how good you are at staying in the middle of a node, a skill that is probably not universal. Then there is the matter of the characteristics of barrels and rifles, some of which seem to be more forgiving than others. I guess that it comes down to this. If you are happy with the results that you are getting, obviously there is little incentive to change, but if you are still looking for improvement, the cost of buying and then selling a Chargemaster, should you conclude that it is not the answer, is relatively small. The reason that I spent so much time experimenting with out of the box throwing techniques was that I wanted to see what could be accomplished, and I really wanted, if at all possible, to avoid having to lug one more piece of equipment to the range every time that I go shooting. In today's competition world, after I had secured a top level rifle and rest, I am pretty sure that one of the minor expenditures that followed would be a Chargemaster so that I could eliminate one concern, and save that energy for the firing line, and the flags.

 

[jim1K]

Lt-32 throws ok but LT-30 is better for me, and 8208 xbr will hold a .1 flows nice. I load on my progressive press for the AR, and i made a stand the bolts down beside the press. I mount a Harrells measure that dumps in by hand as i cycle it. It produced .3 groups at 100 with the 77 MK. A vast improvement over the factory set up....... jim

 

[JerrySharrett]

So what your saying is the variation in powder throwing is why you need a tuner, widen the node? jim

A tuner can modify node width on some centerfire barrels. It's according to the barrel and how far it is from its optimum tune. Any given barrel will only shoot its maximum accuracy only if it is in its top condition.

Some gunsmiths and gun maker/shooters take a given new barrel and cut off 1/8" at a time till it shoots its natural best. Problem is, knowing when to quit trimming, you can't put metal back. Generally, you trim till it shoots what you feel is acceptable. For example, shoot a dozen 3 shot groups, at a given trim, and if that 12 group agg is about 0.150" or better under ideal conditions, you probably should stop trimming.

A good example, in rimfire, someone like Bill Calfe may take a given barrel to the range a dozen times, go back to the shop, trim and/or lap, whichever he feels it needs, before he ships it. Example, Armon Pageli (sp) paid $3,000 each for 3 barrels, but they shoot to a winning ability...now then, it will still take great rimfire ammo, top shooter skill, and a great condition for each shot to be the winner.


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[CMaier]

jim,
the oem milsurplus 8208 will do less than the 0.1.

Lt-32 throws ok but LT-30 is better for me, and 8208 xbr will hold a .1 flows nice. I load on my progressive press for the AR, and i made a stand the bolts down beside the press. I mount a Harrells measure that dumps in by hand as i cycle it. It produced .3 groups at 100 with the 77 MK. A vast improvement over the factory set up....... jim

 

[alinwa]

The finer grained conundrum....

I have to argue a little bit re throwing "finer grained" powder being better.......

Some things I've found.

First, as regards the ChargeMaster. At one time I was convinced the CM would "throw 4831 the same as 4831SC" and that it would throw ball powder to finer spec than +-.1gr. I Was Wrong. I've tried every known modification to the CM and find that the best and most consistent thing for me is un-modified but that it's still prone to throw some wildly out-of-spec clumps........WORSE and more dangerous than any thrower could possibly do. So my opinion is, "lissen for the ding!!" ........and I use them only to pre-weigh prior to final weighing with a good scale. and that only because I reload in a large environment with throwers and scales and presses all set up on rolling benches and me with a rolling office chair. With the CM running in the background I can load like a dervish, safely. (I'm an 07 FFL)

I would not use a CM at a match.

Second, as regards "finer powder." Some of my presumptions have been proven inaccurate over time. for instance, back to the "4831 VS 4831SC" conundrum. Most folks know that the only reason 4831SC came out was because regular 4831 throws like crap. But does it? Once I began weighing A LOT I found many of my suppositions to be wrong....for instance, I'm currently of the opinion that I can throw 4831 just as well as 4831SC. Slightly different technique, and 4831 crunches like walking on a pile of window panes but it will meter OK, as far as metering goes.

And SMALL powder..... I once had to load 500rds of 270WSM and used a fine ball powder and a Harrell thrower in the interest of speed. I got all set up, pre-everything with trays set out and with about 20 pre-calibrated pre-throws and went through all 500 cases in one continuous robotic run. I ended up having to pull bullets on all the loads and start over. Cost me a bunch of time and I have a big pile of used bullets still bagged up for, something.....


opinionsby


al

 

[jim1K]

jim,
the oem milsurplus 8208 will do less than the 0.1.

I don't have any more of it, but for the AR. 8208 XBR is fine if i use it on anything else the GD503 will be used. When i test thrown charges it is on the the GD 503. 133 is bad as is LT32..... jim

 

[JerrySharrett]

Al, your "listen or the ding" is very important. The Chargemasters display shows the progress of that dump. Then it stops, displays the drop number, THEN it shows the final reading after rereading its load pack reading several times. That FINAL display of weight is what is important. On that machine, recalibrate often. After several usages it will be very close.

I've used the RCBS 1500 since they came out, about 2005. I take 2 on the road and one stays on my loading table. These 3 all weigh very close. At worst they will be off 0.5 tenth of a grain since the roundoff of the display is 0.09. I. E. 1/100 of a grain below displays the lower nomber, as 1/100 grain above displays the next number above.

The CM 1500 will operate from 8 VDC to 15 VDC. Running off a battery eliminator set on 15 VDC works slightly best.

One other note, if you use the 1500 outdoors and during the day the temp goes from 40f to 80f the reading does change. In this example, recalibrating every few degrees helps. After all a load pack is not a balance, it is an electronic component.
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[Boyd Allen]

Different powders in the same measure are likely to require different techniques, as will the same powder in different measures. I can throw LT 32 and LT 30 +-.1 gr without much difficulty. In the past when I read articles about powder throwing results that described results and techniques, I believed them....and went looking elsewhere, technique wise to improve my results over what they had gotten. After much trial and error, I learned a lot and WAS able to do better.

 

[jim1K]

Al, your "listen or the ding" is very important. The Chargemasters display shows the progress of that dump. Then it stops, displays the drop number, THEN it shows the final reading after rereading its load pack reading several times. That FINAL display of weight is what is important. On that machine, recalibrate often. After several usages it will be very close.

I've used the RCBS 1500 since they came out, about 2005. I take 2 on the road and one stays on my loading table. These 3 all weigh very close. At worse they will be off 0.5 grain since the roundoff of the display is 0.09. I. E. 1/100 of a grain below displays the lower nomber, as 1/100 grain above displays the next number above.

The CM 1500 will operate from 8 VDC to 15 VDC. Running off a battery eliminator set on 15 VDC works slightly best.

One other note, if you use the 1500 outdoors and during the day the temp goes from 40f to 80f the reading does change. In this example, recalibrating every few degrees helps. After all a load pack is not a balance, it is an electronic component.
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Jerry, What do you check your results on the 1500 with? or do you rely on the scale on it?...... jim

 

[jim1K]

Different powders in the same measure are likely to require different techniques, as will the same powder in different measures. I can throw LT 32 and LT 30 +-.1 gr without much difficulty. In the past when I read articles about powder throwing results that described results and techniques, I believed them....and went looking elsewhere, technique wise to improve my results over what they had gotten. After much trial and error, I learned a lot and WAS able to do better.

You are right, i tried till i changed the burning rate of the powder.... lol, that is why i believe in a good scale. jim

 

[Boyd Allen]

No kidding. I worked with a scrap of 133 until it became distinct from all of the rest from being run through the measure so many times. I would never tell anyone that getting good with a powder measure is easy to do. Most do not have the patience, and many do not have the ability to evaluate what they are seeing and modify their procedure as needed. A key part of my program was that TV was (and is) mostly boring, and undeserving of ones full attention. I never argue against someone using a Chargemaster for short range BR.

A friend has a pretty good alternative for 133. He has a good .1 gr scale that he takes to the range. He can hit +- .1 most but not all of the time. He throws into a scale pan, weighs the pan of powder, and if is is within tolerances he dumps the charge into the funnel. For those few that are not, they go back into the hopper. At the beginning I showed him what I do for my measure. He did a baffle modificaton (I don't use one.) and worked up a variant technique that worked best for his setup, and then threw in a quick weight check as a backup. Later when he started working with the LTs he saw that the scale was unnecessary for those powders.