My problem with the "parallel node"

[martyh]

Marty,

Let's say you develop or improve a product designed to lend more power and speed to a race car. Now with your current methods, you would throw it in a Chevette, get on the track with real race care drivers with real race cars and take off. Then after you were sucked into the combustion and blown out the exhaust of a real race car by a real driver, you would happily declare victory. Now you may know, since it is your car, that you actually improved the performance of the Chevette, but you haven't proven anything at all. Get better equipment and get better at using it, then you may be on to something.

Beau, I could be at the Prater garten this week having dumplings, sausages and red cabbage if I so desired, could spend $7500 on a rifle, would just as soon spend $2000 on a rifle with the same results and have lunch at the Prater. marty

 

[Varmint Al]

Al. As I interpret this, it would seem that the Reverse Taper profile (in green) would be "in tune" at a range further away than the 2 flats profile in red/blue.

Vibe. The steeper the slope of the rise in the Muzzle Projection Curve, the greater the compensation for muzzle velocity. The Two-Flats contour has a wide window but not as much compensation.
Good Hunting... from Varmint Al

 

[Vibe]

Vibe. The steeper the slope of the rise in the Muzzle Projection Curve, the greater the compensation for muzzle velocity. The Two-Flats contour has a wide window but not as much compensation.
Good Hunting... from Varmint Al

Which was sort of the point I was getting at I guess - farther ranges need more compensation. I realize that "adjustable stiffness" is a bit much to ask ....But I would think that by "tuning" the thickness between flats one could achieve exactly the degree of compensation desired.
But all of this modeling was without a tuner also...with a tuner might show other interesting details.

 

[Dan]

Vibe and Varmint Al:

Looking at the analysis related to the barrel with upper and lower flats, would you suspect Remington was on to something with their VTR barrel? That being the profile with the two flats forming a triangular upper half of the barrel profile, and the lower half round? I have never shot one of these nor seen one offered on a rimfire, but surely the shape results in different harmonics than a round profile.

 

[Varmint Al]

Vibe and Varmint Al:

Looking at the analysis related to the barrel with upper and lower flats, would you suspect Remington was on to something with their VTR barrel? That being the profile with the two flats forming a triangular upper half of the barrel profile, and the lower half round? I have never shot one of these nor seen one offered on a rimfire, but surely the shape results in different harmonics than a round profile.

A number of people have asked me about the Remington's VTR barrel. The problem is that I don't have the dimensions of it and can't model it without knowing the dimensions. It would be easy to put that barrel on Esten's rifle model in 6PPC caliber and see what it does.
Good Hunting... from Varmint Al

 

[Boyd Allen]

Al,
For a fifty yard target, and the velocity spread that you have chosen for your analysis of the flattened contour, what would the ideal slope be, for perfect compensation, and could you superimpose that slope on one of your graphs?
Thanks,
Boyd

 

[Beau]

Beau, I could be at the Prater garten this week having dumplings, sausages and red cabbage if I so desired, could spend $7500 on a rifle, would just as soon spend $2000 on a rifle with the same results and have lunch at the Prater. marty

Well, you might as well. As long as you're doing what you're doing, your goose is already cooked anyway. Have fun.

 

[martyh]

Beau, PLEASE TELL ALL OF US HOW A .22 ROUND, ONE SLOW, SAY 1040 AND ONE FAST, SAY 1090 CAN INTERSECT AT 42 YARDS THEN THE SLOW ROUND PRINTS HIGHER.

 

[tuna921]

Beau, PLEASE TELL ALL OF US HOW A .22 ROUND, ONE SLOW, SAY 1040 AND ONE FAST, SAY 1090 CAN INTERSECT AT 42 YARDS THEN THE SLOW ROUND PRINTS HIGHER.

Where do you get data that the bullets intersect ? How do you know this to be true ....Calfee as always tested at 42 yards and now you agree with him ?

 

[martyh]

Where do you get data that the bullets intersect ? How do you know this to be true ....Calfee as always tested at 42 yards and now you agree with him ?

I don't beau came up with that one....... I think it was mixed in with the stuff from the scavenger hunt, you know stuff like butchers string, styrofoam, carpenters hammer, welding rod,vise, baby scale, tuner suspended on a string++++ vibrating shimmying truck and antennas and now slow rounds that intersect with a fast round and eventually print higher at 50 yards...... and who is it that doesn't want to listen to the smartest people in the room????????? not me.

 

[tuna921]

I don't beau came up with that one....... I think it was mixed in with the stuff from the scavenger hunt, you know stuff like butchers string, styrofoam, carpenters hammer, welding rod,vise, baby scale, tuner suspended on a string++++ vibrating shimmying truck and antennas and now slow rounds that intersect with a fast round and eventually print higher at 50 yards...... and who is it that doesn't want to listen to the smartest people in the room????????? not me.

Marteen , you just might be the smartest and maybe not by IQ,we will never know because .......You fail to prove your theorys to anyone here ....You didn't show up at the barn but pass judgement on others and how they tune their rifle or how much weight they use. Someone who wants to gain knowledges listens,you don't is that beacuse you already know it all ?

 

[martyh]

Maarten , you just might be the smartest and maybe not by IQ,we will never know because .......You fail to prove your theories to anyone here ....You didn't show up at the barn but pass judgement on others and how they tune their rifle or how much weight they use. Someone who wants to gain knowledges listens,you don't is that because you already know it all ?

jim, I have found what varmint Al says works, nothing more nothing less.

 

[mks]

Al,
For a fifty yard target, and the velocity spread that you have chosen for your analysis of the flattened contour, what would the ideal slope be, for perfect compensation, and could you superimpose that slope on one of your graphs?
Thanks,
Boyd

Boyd,
Yes, that's the important question, isn't it. From the drop in Al's table for the fixed muzzle, we want an upward slope of muzzle projection of about 2000 inches per second. The reverse taper barrel has a slope of about 800 inches per second, while the two-flat barrel gives about 400. So we need a slope about 2.5 times faster than the fastest barrel so far. This may be a bit of an overestimate, since the toe of Al's stock recoils straight back, while many benchrest stocks have a slope at the toe that causes the muzzle to rise as the rifle recoils (Wally mentioned this earlier in this thread). For each 0.010" that the toe drops by the time the bullet exits, the muzzle projection slope would increase around 140 inches per second (0.010" times (150 ft range)/(4 ft span between front and rear rest)/0.0026 s bullet exit time).

Cheers,
Keith

 

[Boyd Allen]

mks,
So you're telling me that his two-flat contour takes it in the wrong direction, that ideally you would like a rate of rise 2.5 times that produced by a reverse taper, and five times the two-flat?

 

[mks]

mks,
So you're telling me that his two-flat contour takes it in the wrong direction, that ideally you would like a rate of rise 2.5 times that produced by a reverse taper, and five times the two-flat?

Yes, from the 0.1737" of vertical for the fixed muzzle, the reverse taper reduces it to 0.0910." There is still a ways to go to eliminate vertical.

Keith

 

[Melvin Calliham]

Does it really matter? There are some who defend BC, even though he can't prove his stopped muzzle theory. Just because his rifles shoot well in competition in no way proves his theory of the "stopped muzzle". I have read a lot of his posts, and to me, he hasn't offered one iota of proof. Could be a number of things, or a compilation of a lot of things, that makes his rifles shoot so well. Or, it could be the SHOOTER that makes the difference.
The ones who believe in his theory will not change their minds, even if scientific models, etc. are produced showing it to be contrary to the laws of physics.I, for one, will always side with scientific proof over someone that "feels" something occurs. There is no denying his rifles work, but I think he starts these arguments by baiting the scientific guys with the posts like this," I need help" posts in which he asks for people to re-write scientific models that don't correspond to his "feelings" about how a rifle vibrates.
MC

 

[martyh]

Melvin, I look at it this way, right now it's nothing more than a money race, spend it and your at the top. I'm really am not thrilled about participating in shooting that way. Melvin, forgot to add this, if misinformation and disinformation stays out there who benifits? not me that's for sure. all of us hear so and so don't shoot bench so what do they have to offer? I look at it this way what do they have to gain?

 

[Varmint Al]

Boyd,
Yes, that's the important question, isn't it. From the drop in Al's table for the fixed muzzle, we want an upward slope of muzzle projection of about 2000 inches per second. The reverse taper barrel has a slope of about 800 inches per second, while the two-flat barrel gives about 400. So we need a slope about 2.5 times faster than the fastest barrel so far. This may be a bit of an overestimate, since the toe of Al's stock recoils straight back, while many benchrest stocks have a slope at the toe that causes the muzzle to rise as the rifle recoils (Wally mentioned this earlier in this thread). For each 0.010" that the toe drops by the time the bullet exits, the muzzle projection slope would increase around 140 inches per second (0.010" times (150 ft range)/(4 ft span between front and rear rest)/0.0026 s bullet exit time).

Cheers,
Keith

I haven't modeled the slope of the buttstock where it sits in the rear rest. That angle, during recoil, should increase the rise of the muzzle's projection at the target. What is a typical angle of the buttstocks lower contour? I could include that in the mesh for the rear rest and see the effect.
Good Hunting... from Varmint Al

 

[mks]

I haven't modeled the slope of the buttstock where it sits in the rear rest. That angle, during recoil, should increase the rise of the muzzle's projection at the target. What is a typical angle of the buttstocks lower contour? I could include that in the mesh for the rear rest and see the effect.
Good Hunting... from Varmint Al

From the IBS rule book: "...having a toe formed by a straight line drawn from the toe of a substantially vertical butt with a 13 1/4 inch pull starting at a point at least 4 inches below the axis of the bore and extending forward to the centerline of the barrel at a point no more than 18 inches forward of the bolt face..."

So it depends on the length of the action, but typically ends up being about 6 degrees.

Cheers,
Keith

 

[Lynn]

Marty
For some reason you seem think that Bill is on some kind of mission to spread false information to a vast number of shooters.
In my opinion you would be better served to just ask those using Calfee rifles if there tuners are really lightweight tuners or standard off the shelf Harrels.
If Bill is using store bought Harrel tuners on his guns wich according to you weigh too much to be properly tuned you should be able to beat them on a regular basis shouldn't you?
Waterboy