Michigan 2009 score challenge

And Dick,

David Halblom's opinions are exactly that; David's opinions. Not mine, necessarily.
Don't hold someone else's opinions against everyone, or me.
As I said to one of our daughters once after reprimanding her for something she did or didn't do when she said I hate her. "No, I don't hate you, I just hate some of the things you do."

What I sent you was NOT hate mail. I sent you my opinion on your practices. Hate mail would NEVER have been as civil as what I sent you.

David J. Halblom Sr.
 
They followed historical treatment of the situation. If you read the rules it say protest ends X minutes after the targets are hung. That verbiage in the rule book has always been read(no, I didn't say interpreted) as meaning no protest after each match's targets were hung + X minutes.

Greg,
The verbiage is "targets". Plural. Not one. Not "historical convention." I have fond memories of hearing the announcement at Thurmont that you had 30 minutes to protest your targets. People would gripe that there was a wait for awards and thus a delay to getting on the road home.
I agree there is a method in place to correct or change the rules. It is a good system and works. The problem is getting everyone to read, use, and enforce them.
Later.
David
 
David..

Greg,
The verbiage is "targets". Plural. Not one. Not "historical convention." I have fond memories of hearing the announcement at Thurmont that you had 30 minutes to protest your targets. People would gripe that there was a wait for awards and thus a delay to getting on the road home.
I agree there is a method in place to correct or change the rules. It is a good system and works. The problem is getting everyone to read, use, and enforce them.
Later.
David

I know what the rule says....and that's your read of it. That's why it needs to be clarified. I felt that way 2 years ago and feel it now. However, I get upset at some who infer nefariousness on the part of others who have a historical read of the current rules. Just change the rules and let's all leave the mud in the ditch where it belongs. Regards Greg
 
Last edited:
I was at the Bud this year. I remember the issue involving the X and the time limit. What the score committee did was go by a procedure that has been followed for years. What's with the "goings on" comment? What exactly do you mean by that?

They followed historical treatment of the situation. If you read the rules it say protest ends X minutes after the targets are hung. That verbiage in the rule book has always been read(no, I didn't say interpreted) as meaning no protest after each match's targets were hung + X minutes.

Two years ago I and some others in Maine agreed at Jim Borden's request, to review the score rules and try and correct obvious errors like spelling and to suggest rule clarifications. We did just that to the protest of targets rule. It got enough signatures to be on the agenda in 2007. It was tabled by the group. Sure, I think it needs clarification now as much as I did then. But, for anyone to suggest or implicate certain IBS people in some kind of control conspiracy is ludicrous. They are just following historical convention. Recognize that and then work to change the rules without all the inuendo. Those IBS officials have worked their hands to the bone for the benefit of IBS and have been honest, fair and predictable in their actions. If you or anyone else wants to isolate certain IBS officials, like officers or members of the score committee from performing certain functions at a shoot, fine. Establish a rule to that effect. Your suggestions about the motives of some IBS officials is puzzling me. Regards --Greg

Greg,

Regarding the Bud, the target that was under controversy was an obvious mistake made by the scorer for a 10, not an X. The target was marked a 10, accidentally I'm sure, when in fact the shot was a 9. This was a simple "clerical" error which should have been changed with no need for a protest at all. A protest was filed however because thats what was demanded. In any event, the referee's determined that in fact the shot was a 9. The next morning when the Statistician was changing the score in the scoring trailer, Gary Long instructed him that he could not change the score. The reason he gave was the rule we are discussing. Here it is right from the IBS rulebook: "Scores win be posted and thirty minutes allowed for protests to be brought to the attention of the Referees." Obviously the word "win" is a typo and should be "will". My question to you...Where does it say that a single set of targets will be hung(your word), and then 30 minutes allowed for protest? It clearly states that the SCORES will be posted.

The "goings on" refers to many things that went wrong at the match, not just that one incident. I'm not going to go into detail about all of them, but here's a couple: On the first day of the match, after the completion of the 100yd Agg, the Statistician made an announcement over the scoring trailers' loudspeaker, His word were unforgettable to me and many others: He said: "Does anyone else want to come up here and waste $10 on a protest?" I had just finished moving some flags around, and was walking back to my loading area with a couple other competitors. One of them turned to me and said "what did he just say?" We were flabbergasted to say the least.

On the third day of the match, before we got started, we had the required safety meeting. Do you know what it says in the rulebook in regards to if a shooter misses the meeting? It says they will not be allowed to shoot. Do you also remember that right before that meeting the Vice President of IBS announced to everyone there that one of the shooters had an issue, and could not attend the meeting? Was that shooter denied the ability to shoot that day? Now I'm not a big fan of this rule, but rules are rules, and this one was BROKEN in front of a bunch of IBS members, as well as officials. I'm not going to mention who this shooter was, but I will allow that the competitor in question is a close personal friend of the VP.

As to why I believe this group is trying to control all things score, just go the IBS webpage and look at the agenda items written this year. Then look at the recommendations of the Score Committee. I don't know who has input when it comes to these recomendations, only that Gary Long is the chair, FWIW. The recommendation for Records procedure is to keep it in the Score committee, rather than integrating ALL potential record scoring(Group, Long Distance, Score) to the Records Committee...where it belongs. This item has been fought about in years passed, with the Score committee getting there way every time.

The very first agenda item would not allow IBS officials or committee members to serve as referee's at any IBS match. The use of these people as referee's is such a conflict that it's laughable. What is the Score Committee's recommendation? They don't feel that most ordinary members are capable of being referee's.

If this cannot be construed as trying to "control" all things that relate to Score in IBS, I don't what else to tell you.
 
The Matches are held..

The Tawas and Oscoda range are over in the North east side of the state. Harrison, Middle of the State. Holton is on the western side. Western Wayne is down by Detroit. If I missed one or if I am incorrect some one let me know. :D
 
Wow!
This seems like a lot of controversy over something I plan on winning for fun.;)

Matt
 
Factory rifle guideline changes

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions that many have given to help us have a fair and well run competition. We have been listening and not being too hasty to respond. We wanted to give this process time to work properly before making any changes. And, we wanted to keep changes to a minimum and yet be helpful.


As a result, we have made some minor changes to the Light Factory Rifle classification. We have raised the weight limit to 10.5 lbs. in order to be inclusive of many of the guns now being sold and equiped with a scope and mounts. Also, we have taken out the exclusion of 6PPC chambering, since there are enough other limiting factors present.

The classification names have been changed to more closely represent what is intended. They are now Light Factory Rifle and Factory Custom Rifle.

Referees will be as required by IBS.

We feel these changes should adequately address the issues that were brought forward, and we are reluctant to make any more changes.

Thanks again everyone,
Tom & Larry
 

Attachments

  • FACTORY RIFLE GUIDELINES.doc
    23 KB · Views: 129
OK Larry,

So what are the classes, VFS, Custom, Light Factory Rifle and Factory Custom Rifle?

Thinkin Jeff will like the new PPC rule :D
 
Francis

When I looked at the proposal there was no allowance for Hunter/Varmit Hunter. I'm working on the spreadsheet right now for the Harison matches, thats why I questioned which classes will be incorporated with the Championship Series. I've made accommodations for Hunter/Varmit Hunter, looks like I'll have to modify the the Factory Classes........................... No big deal.

It's Tom&Larrys gig, I'll make what ever changes needed to meet what they require.
 
How many shooters have...

to shoot in a class before you give them any prizes? Wasn't it five or six?

To my knowledge, no one has ever fired a Varmint Hunter gun in Harrison.

We had three guys shooting Hunter Class for a while. One (Ray) died. One (Rick) said he was going to throw his gun in Lake Michigan. Dudley doesn't shoot his because there's no competition.

You guys aren't giving prizes to people who didn't beat anyone, are you?:confused:

Dick
 
Quick question...

I assume these are all IBS registered tournaments, right? My wife and I have been wanting to take a vacation to Michigan and we're thinking that combining a vacation with some matches would be just the ticket. :)

Thanks! -Al
 
Francis

When was this?
Who was running the matches?
Why didn't you tell him that you had VH guns?
When's the last time Brad Lewis was at Harrison?

:confused::confused:

Dick
 
So why didn't you give whoever won...

a prize? Harrison's policy has always been that if there are three people in a class, we pay prizes. We don't pay anything for less than three competitors in a class. It's been that way since 1991. I've personally never cared what class you shoot in but you ain't gonna get no prizes if you don't beat somebody... two somebodies actually.

I used to get lots of calls from the Hunter Rifle shooters before matches inquiring if there would be three for a class. Since Ray died and Averill threw his HR in Lake Michigan, that kinda died out.

Honestly, I knew you and Paul had one or more VH guns but I thought those were probably the only one's in Michigan.

Dick
 
Classes will be........

In decending order;

Varmint for Score ( LV and HV Benchrest Rifles)

Varmint Hunter ( same as a Hunter Rifle but no case size restrictions )

Hunter ( 10 lb., 6x scope, 47 gr. capacity, etc. by IBS rules )

Factory Custom ( modified and heavier factory rifles )

Light Factory ( factory, unmodified, 10.5 lb. max, etc. )


As the outline of the rules state, it will take 5 shooters to make up a class that will qualify for award status for the challenge. If there are not 5, then those who want to, will be moved up into the next highest classification, in order to preserve their shooting record and desire to continue in the Challenge.

As an example, it is not likely, unless a whole lot of promotion happens, that there will be 5 participants in the Hunter or Varmint Hunter classifications. However, if a participant wants to shoot that class of rifle anyway, his score will be saved until the end. If, by the end of the Challenge, there has not been 5 shooters in that class compete, then his scores will be moved up and entered into the VFS column, and preserved in that way. This may happen, because at some clubs there may be 3 shooters in these classifications who want to compete for the club sponsored award, but not the necessary 5 shooters needed for overall standing in the Challenge.

It is most likely that by the end of the Challenge there will have been enough shooter in the VFS, Factory Custom and Light Factory classes to present awards for each of these classes. It would be nice if there was good representation in the Hunter classes, however, in Michigan, historically, participation in these classes has been sparce. However, we would certainly welcome shooters in the Hunter classes if enough could be found.

We hope this will clarify the situation and answer any questions and uncertainties. As things like this come up, we will continue to find solutions that are reasonable and fair. This whole process is new to everyone involved, so whenever we answer questions or clarify anything, we first consult with those who may have experience or a vested interest. Please continue to be patient and yet give your input.

Sincerely,
Tom & Larry
 
Another Good Job

Looks like you have pretty much so nailed it. I think this is a great set up to lay the foundation for the future of this event.
Now if we can just eliminate this 40 inches of snow and ice we'll be all set.

Mike
Harrison, Michigan
 
Word has just got to me about a schedual change. WWCCA is listed as Sept 19th for 100 & 200yd. This has been cancelled until the powers that be, re-schedual,
Thank You
 
WWCCA September MI Challenge Match.

As Bill Gammon has stated, Dana and I discussed changing the date from September 19 to Spetember 12 (the preceding Saturday) because I need to be at the NBRSA Directors meeting at St. Louis that day. I committed to Dana to run that match and the date was set without considering the NBRSA Group Nationals. My bad.

Dana needs to work the issue with the Board of the Club before it is finalized. If that date doesn't work, we will revert back to the Sept. 19th date.

Stay tuned.
 
September 12th Schedule

Joe;

Just a heads up to let you know that Harrison has a Score match scheduled for September 12th. Just wanted to give you a heads up. Also if you e-mail me an address I will send you that paperwork you requested from me along with copies of our Centerfire and rimfire schedules.
mmconway@glccomputers.com

Mike
Harrison, Michigan
 
Back
Top