Measuring Small Group

C

coyotechet

Chet
First I want to Congratulate Mr. Mike Stennett for shooting such a small group and winning a New World record. Wow what an achievement! I am sure it will be a standing record for many many years.
Chet

Now I have a couple of question.
1.Since when did the NBRAS start measuring single groups in the ten thousands?
2. Is the NBRSA going to measure all record groups in the ten thousands (.0001) from now on?
3. If someone was to shoot a small group of .0076 does he set a New World's record? If not why it would be smaller.
 
Chet, the group was measured by the four members of the records committee, their four measurements were then added up, averaged and divided out to four decimal places. That's why it's 4 places. They could have just as easily stopped at three places when it was averaged. .0077 sounds better than .008 I'm sure each member had it measured to three places just like any other measurement. That's my take on it and worth about as much. FWIW, I never thought Mac McMillan's record would ever be broken. Congratulations, to Mike Stinnett. Job well done. I've always heard the statement, "Records are made to be broken!". It just took almost 40 years to break it. Mac's record was shot on Sept. 23, 1973. When you take .0077 times 4= .0308. I imagine that the total was .031/4=.00775. Hard to imagine muliplying a group size by 4 and coming up with a .031", much less an .0077" I haven't ever come close to an .031" much less an .009, .008 or .0077. That group is just FLAT AMAZING especially to have been shot at Denton, which isn't an easy range to shoot.

Mike
 
Thanks Mike. I just never thought of it that way but sounds right. Now I wonder why it never came out in .tenth's before. And still would like to know what happens when the targets gets measured by the records committee of 4 and comes to a measurement smaller by a couple of tenth's, is it a New World Record or is there some kind of ruling against this? I probably should know this but I just can't seem to recall it and this happens a lot any more at 76.
Chet
 
I don't think there is anything that addresses anything about how many thousandths or ten thousandths it takes to beat a record. Just a guess, but I'd say on an agg. it would be .0001" and I guess the same thing would apply to a single group record when it's measured by the records committee. I don't know whether I've ever been beat by .0001" in an agg., but I've been beat by .0002" in agg's before. Since you can get beat by that amount in a match, I don't see any reason why a record couldn't fall by .0001". In case a group measurement is protested at a match, in the NBRSA,I believe it has to be measured by .009" smaller to replace the original measurement. I'm sure the purpose of that is to keep re-measurements to a minimum. Lets say in the case of someone getting beat by .0002" in an agg. The same measurer could probably go back and measure all the targets on the 1st and 2nd place finishes and have the placing change places numerous times. We are in shooting contests, not measuring contests, so that's why there is usually no fuss on getting beat out by .0002" or even more. It is what it is. The measurer does the best they can and we live with the results. Most times if there is a protest on someone's target and it's changed, it's an obvious miss measurement. Everyone who shoots benchrest, needs to measure targets at a match at least just once. They would have a better understanding of measuring targets. For instance, if the measurer forgets to close the caliper, zeroing the caliper from one target to the next, it will result in a wrong measurement and is easy to do.
 
Mike Bryant said:
I don't think there is anything that addresses anything about how many thousandths or ten thousandths it takes to beat a record. Just a guess, but I'd say on an agg. it would be .0001" and I guess the same thing would apply to a single group record when it's measured by the records committee. I don't know whether I've ever been beat by .0001" in an agg., but I've been beat by .0002" in agg's before. Since you can get beat by that amount in a match, I don't see any reason why a record couldn't fall by .0001". In case a group measurement is protested at a match, in the NBRSA,I believe it has to be measured by .009" smaller to replace the original measurement. I'm sure the purpose of that is to keep re-measurements to a minimum. Lets say in the case of someone getting beat by .0002" in an agg. The same measurer could probably go back and measure all the targets on the 1st and 2nd place finishes and have the placing change places numerous times. We are in shooting contests, not measuring contests, so that's why there is usually no fuss on getting beat out by .0002" or even more. It is what it is. The measurer does the best they can and we live with the results. Most times if there is a protest on someone's target and it's changed, it's an obvious miss measurement. Everyone who shoots benchrest, needs to measure targets at a match at least just once. They would have a better understanding of measuring targets. For instance, if the measurer forgets to close the caliper, zeroing the caliper from one target to the next, it will result in a wrong measurement and is easy to do.
Click to expand...

Well stated, Mike!:cool: RG
 
Thanks again Mike. You are so right as to what you stated. I was not talking about range measurements I know all about the
.009 protest rule and Aggregate in the tenth’s.
What I was asking.
1. IF the Records Committee of 4 were to measure the new single group with a measure of .0076 would it be a New World Record?
I never got my questions answered so I went to the last rulebook I have and started reading it. Rulebook No. 35
Rule # 14 OFFIAL TARGET MEASUREMENT (WORLD RECORDS).

Here is what it says.
The chairman will send them to 3 of the “4-man” permanent “scoring committee”, making sure that any member of the “scoring committee” would not be scoring a target from his/her region. Those chosen to serve on this committee need not necessarily be a Director, but should be NBRSA member who qualifies as a good scorer. Each of the 4 scorers should be from a different region. All measurements will be returned to the chairman, who will compute an average of .001 inch on an individual groups and .0001 inch on aggregates, and this will be the official measurement.

Before I ask question 2 an 3 again I want to again Congratulate Mr. Mike Stennett for shooting such a small group and winning a New World record.

2. Is the NBRSA going to measure all record groups in the ten thousands(.0001) from now on?

3. IF the Records Committee of 4 were to measure the new single group with a measure of .0076 would it be a New World Record?
If an Aggregate gets measured by the records committee of 4 .0001 smaller it becomes a New World Record so why not and individual group.

4. Did the NBRSA Broad of Directors make a rule change to the Rule #14? If so when?
I am just asking this questions because I want to know and have called Audrey Brown and asked for a new up to date rulebook..
Chet
 
Fun benchrest math facts

coyotechet said:
2. Is the NBRSA going to measure all record groups in the ten thousands(.0001) from now on?

3. IF the Records Committee of 4 were to measure the new single group with a measure of .0076 would it be a New World Record?

4. Did the NBRSA Broad of Directors make a rule change to the Rule #14? If so when?
Click to expand...

Only the committee knows for sure what the individual measurements were, but the 0.0077" record is clearly the result of dividing a total of 0.023 by 3, for instance, individual measurements of 0.008, 0.008 and 0.007. The next smaller record would be when the total is 0.022. Divide by 3 = 0.00733333. There are no combinations of individual measurements that could result in an average between 0.0076 and 0.0073. In fact, there are only 23 more records possible 0.0073, 0.0070, 0.0067, 0.0063 ... etc., down to 0.001, 0.0007, 0.0003 and 0.0000.

Keith
 
mks said:
Only the committee knows for sure what the individual measurements were, but the 0.0077" record is clearly the result of dividing a total of 0.023 by 3, for instance, individual measurements of 0.008, 0.008 and 0.007. The next smaller record would be when the total is 0.022. Divide by 3 = 0.00733333. There are no combinations of individual measurements that could result in an average between 0.0076 and 0.0073. In fact, there are only 23 more records possible 0.0073, 0.0070, 0.0067, 0.0063 ... etc., down to 0.001, 0.0007, 0.0003 and 0.0000.

Keith[/QUOTE

That's true Keith. All questions still the same, will just change the .0076 to .0073.
There is still lots of other individual groups that can be broken. Are they going to also be measured in .0001 #14 rule in the book says .001 has the rule be changed if so I am good with that.
Chet
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Remember when a couple of people (Wilbur lol) decided to remove the barrel block rules from the book? Then they didn’t print or send members an updated book for a few years, and made everyone look like fools when they questioned Mr. Biggs new stock design.
That was a funny one wasn’t it?

Chet has a right to question if people are following the rules.

I was working on breaking a yardage agg record once only to find they were reusing the moving backers. Someone said it didn’t matter because you can only set a record at a state, regional or national match.
Don’t know if that was true or not?

A .008 still beats a .009 but if the record comity can’t remember what rules they have to follow, someone like Chet needs to remind them.
 
I don't think that is being fair to the records committee. They measured the target, the average of all the measurements came out smaller than the existing record, so the case is closed.

As for records, a shooter can set a record at any Registered NBRSA match. To be a Registered Match, the moving backer system must be in place and working. Any group scored must have a backer with the correct number of shot in it or the penalty is assigned right then and there.

Many clubs do tape up backers, but as long as the Chairman of the Records Committee can verify that there are the correct number of shots, that all that is required. Remember, the backer is checked by the official scorer at the match anyway.

All of this is much ado about nothing. Remember, the records committee has targets submitted on a regular basis for consideration. Since records do not fall that often, that speaks for the scrutiny that they are subjected too........jackie
 
Jackie,
I don't think anyone is questioning the committee or how they did their jobs.

Just let me ask: Do you think, according to the rules, the new record should be called 0.0077" or 0.008"? It seems clear, unless we are looking at an outdated rule book, that it should be 0.008." Now, disregarding the current rules, which measurement do you think is in the best interest of the future of BR? If 0.0077", is it worth the effort to make a rule change?

Keith
 
Jackie
Why do we even have the Office Rule Book and By-laws? Or a board of Directors making NBRSA rules if we are not following them. Really the rules are of no use if not followed. I am for any change that is good for any Organization. As I have set on many boards over the years NBRSA for one. All changes are first brought up then voted on by the Directors before the change is made and put into law.
Again I say why even have the OFFICIAL RULE BOOK and BY-LAWS when they are not followed. The NBRSA is a good Organization lets keep it that way and stick to our Rules and by-Laws. Make any change that is needed that is for the betterment of the Organization, but do it within the written by-laws.
Chet

Rule # 14 OFFICIAL TARGET MEASUREMENT (WORLD RECORDS).
Here is what it says.
The chairman will send them to 3 of the “4-man” permanent “scoring committee”, making sure that any member of the “scoring committee” would not be scoring a target from his/her region. Those chosen to serve on this committee need not necessarily be a Director, but should be NBRSA member who qualifies as a good scorer. Each of the 4 scorers should be from a different region. All measurements will be returned to the chairman, who will compute an average of .001 inch on an individual groups and .0001 inch on aggregates, and this will be the official measurement.
 
Here is the rule from the latest Official Rule Book right off the NBRSA web site.
Revised Edition No.35.

(14) PROCEDURE FOR OFFICIAL RECOGNITION OF A
WORLD RECORD (Adopted at September 16, 2000 Board
Meeting)
(g) The Chairman then records the scores of the 3
Committee Member (range measurement is not included),
computes an average of .001 inch on individual groups and
.0001 inch on aggregates, and that score is the official
measurement.
Chet
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top