Maximum accurate barrel diameter for Heavy Gun

Anyone that calls other people "children" and presents no statistics, competitive personal experience or competitive experienced opinions isn't worth listening to anyway.
 
Danny--I met you and shot with you at the World Open a couple times.
 
Charles E said:
How much bigger? Are you talking 1.5 versus 1.4, or could you go all the way up to 2-3 inches without upsetting the stock?



As far as I know, no. This not only from the testing of people like Danny Brooks & Jerry Stiller & Joe Salt (who might have reached a different conclusion, but he *did the work.*) It also comes from the good theoretical engineers, like Mann and Harold Vaughn.

But there are almost always compromises, and the bigger the barrel usually the greater the compromise. Moreover, the gains aren't an "always" matter. By that I mean they're on the small side, so a "really good" 1.450 barrel will beat a "pretty good" 2-inch barrel. Just what anyone would expect. A larger barrel is not an automatic formula for success.



Depends on what you think causes vertical. There is the modeling work by Varmint Al, but that assumes (1) barrels flex significantly, and (2) barrels are a single cantilevered beam. There have been a number of rifles with barrels built on a double cantilevered beam model. With tension, Pendergraft in the U.S, Tony Z and Jeff Rogers in Oz. With compression, Tooley in the States (that I know of), and using neither tension or compression, Phil Jusilus in the States, who essentially put a cats head (aka spider), via a 3-inch diameter pipe, on each end of the barrel.

All worked, and about equally well. And in spite of the theory, with a large enough pipe, all shot essentially round groups; tuning just shrank/expanded the size of the group.

For a smaller, single cantilevered beam model, Vaughn pointed out you can just change the location of the barrel in the block a little bit.

But I sense that you're not after experimenting, testing, but are rather looking for a sure-fire, "always better" answer. And if that's the case, I'd say the answer is no. Use the 1.4-inch barrel. Remember the compromises.

I'd say too there are people in Australia who would be better sources than the internet. Annie Elliott is shooting some long-range now. Dunno about Stuart, I only met him once, and long ago, but he seemed very approachable. As I said, Jeff Rogers & esp,. Tony Z for technical help. The man I knew best was Alan Peake, but he's passed on.

BTW, you can get a bit of help on who's apt to know things in the states by looking at the Williamsport Hall of Fame site (you'll find Joe Salt(alamachia) there), or for IBS, the Long Range Marksman site (You'll find Danny Brooks there, one down from the top.)

http://internationalbenchrest.com/results/shooter_rankings/PrecRifLD.php

* * *

Danny, Joe:

I try not to post to the long-range forum anymore. Occasionally I get drawn in by accident when using the "New Posts" feature, and forget to see what forum the thread is in. You can probably figure out why...
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Thanks for the reply Charles E. By the sounds of it, I will stick with a standard 1.450" barrel. You are right, I didn't want to be doing too much experimenting and playing with this gun, just want to get it shooting as well as possible in as few rounds as possible. I get along well with the Elliots, aJR and TonyZ and they always have a lot of good information, really technical people. Two things I would think about are putting a tuner on this big barrel and cryo freezing the barrel.
 
rooshooter said:
I get along well with the Elliots, aJR and TonyZ and they always have a lot of good information, really technical people.
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Some years ago, when they were over for the Super Shoot, Stuart and Alan shot a 1,000 yard mach with us at Hawks Ridge. Believe it was the N.C. State Championships, a 2-day affair. Beyond the match, they had even more extra time, as the SS was a week away. We did have some fun! Anyway, Stuart shot Bill Shehane's rifles and Alan shot mine. This was when I was running a 2-inch i.d. tube to tension a 1.350 inch barrel on my HG. Alan allowed that he'd never shot 1K groups as small as with that rifle. Somewhat similar to a large diameter barrel...

Two things I would think about are putting a tuner on this big barrel and cryo freezing the barrel.
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Well, Cryo never hurt accuracy, far as I know. Some rather big-name U.S. gunsmiths held different opinions on it's benefits for machining. I was a fly on the wall when Allan Hall & his son, Bruce Thom, Dave Tooley, and Jim Carmichel kicked the notion around. They didn't agree on the benefits as far as improving machineability went, but I don't think any felt it hurt accuracy.

You may find a tuner a different situation. Some of the Texas boys who have a passion for unlimited rifles in the short-range game felt that a tuner slowed down the speed at which they could shoot. Took longer for the vibrations to die down. Now they shoot those unlimiteds very fast, but I've noticed the same vibration issues with a 1K Heavy Gun, which you can also shoot pretty fast. Sometimes I think we shoot them a little too quickly.

Anyway, good luck to you.

Edit: BTW, I never barrel blocked these rifles, including the original conventional, 1.800-inch barrel on the action. You see, it was a 2-inch diameter, 10-inch log BAT, and it just didn't need it. Later, I did discover some advantages to barrel blocking, but this has to do with mounting the scope and that iffy joint between the barrel & receiver -- except with that big BAT...
 
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Danny, I am not arguing that fact, what i am saying is if i can get a HV. barrel to shoot as good as the heavy ones. Freezing the heavy barrels will help them also……. jim
 
I have never heard anyone give so much credit to cryo treating barrels.:D I live close enough to Decatur Illinois to carry my barrels up there to have them treated and have done it to several barrels over the years. I don't believe there's any big benefit to it. I've had barrels that were almost good shooting barrels that I had frozen that were still almost good shooters after being treated. I have had top shelf barrels come back every bit as good as they were. I even took a load of brand new barrels there and most of them (all but one) were very competitive barrels.
They were good barrels! That's all there is to it, they were good barrels or they wouldn't have ever shot worth a hoot frozen or not.
The only true success story I ever saw with cryo was a Model 70 all stock 300WinMag that would walk left to right for 3 shots then settle into a very respectable group. I had it frozen and that did prevent this problem from ever occuring again.:cool:
 
That is for the most part all it does, keep them from walking,and that sure helps in winning……. jim
 
Jim,

Do whatever works. Freezing the barrels will do at the worst nothing, but the gunsmiths believe that the metal machines easier.


Dan,

I remember the name, but I am having a hard time putting a face to it. If I am able I will be at the Open this year. Make sure that we get a chance to shake hands.

Rooshooter,

Good luck with your project. Sorry about the bit of mindless back & forth, but different opinions sometimes bring that out. It would be boring if we all thought the same now, would it not?

Danny
 
Jay I wish I lived close enough to one of the Cryo places cause I would try it again. Had one done years ago and it shot very well after that, probably the same reason some rifles like tuners! Sold the rifle to Ken Ridenour he sold it to a guy down in I think Vergina his first name was Jim can't think of the last. He called me and wanted to know why I sold it cause it shot so well, Told him I needed to sell that to buy another Action. So it may help some , you're out a few buck but like I've always said try it you might like it!
Hay Charles don't let them get you down, gives me something new to talk about. I get a few chuckles and say wish they were next to me on a bench!


Joe Salt
 
I have four for next year all ready frozen, and yes it does machine better. Maybe you need a Dasher to see the difference……… jim
 
Everyone knows about opinions, so here is mine. I built a true "heavy" gun that sports a six inch wide stock with rails. The main difference is that the rails are alum., the block is very small, same as we used in light guns in the old days, and it is complete with a "penn taper" light gun barrel. The whole gun scope and all only weights in at 27 LBS. The thoughts behind this build was cheaper barrels, the ability to switch with a light gun, and to just shave off weight for carrying it around. I have shot this gun since 2010 in 1000 yard and some 600 yard matches with some very good groups. I have never seen that 10 shots through the "light gun" barrel have made a difference over its counterpart which is the exact same gun, but with stainless rails, larger block, and an 1.450 barrel, which weighs 64 LBS. I think Todd S. said a mouthful when he mentioned the "good tube". I agree that if a barrel is a good barrel, then that means more than the diameter. On the other hand it is hard to discount what a world class shooter like Danny Brooks who said he likes the big diameters. Let me also include the fact that my heavy gun is chambered in 6 dasher and I would be quick to admit that the larger cases such as 300s, etc. would make more of a difference..... Just my two cents worth......Shannon Lowman
 
Shannon, I didn't know they had the internet down there, All i'm trying to say it helped both barrels this year. To have it done to a heavy may help it from walking. How many people test to see if the barrel walks in twenty rounds?…….. jim
 
Just to add to the fact that freezing helps on aggs. at Harry Jones the light gun was on top in the 10 match agg., 6 match agg., and 6 match score in the heavy gun ………. jim
 
For anyone that has the book, what did Mr. Vaughn say, if he said anything at all, about for instance, a tension barrel rifle? Or water cooled? Or some of the other newer ideas(or in the case of water-cooled, newly rediscovered)?

Also, Mr Charles, when you say he put a "cats head" via 3" diameter pipe on each end of the barrel, what do you mean by this? Im having a hard time picturing what that looks like.

Speaking of, if you have a tension or compression barrel system, would it not be stiffer to just have a barrel that is the same diameter as whatever pipe/shroud you are using provided you can get the rifle to break loose and track straight? Or are those setups more for the tuning ability than stiffness?

Thanks.
 
jbhotrod said:
For anyone that has the book, what did Mr. Vaughn say, if he said anything at all, about for instance, a tension barrel rifle? Or water cooled? Or some of the other newer ideas(or in the case of water-cooled, newly rediscovered)?

Also, Mr Charles, when you say he put a "cats head" via 3" diameter pipe on each end of the barrel, what do you mean by this? Im having a hard time picturing what that looks like.

Speaking of, if you have a tension or compression barrel system, would it not be stiffer to just have a barrel that is the same diameter as whatever pipe/shroud you are using provided you can get the rifle to break loose and track straight? Or are those setups more for the tuning ability than stiffness?

Thanks.
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Hopefully Charles will answer but he's been reticent of late.

Charles Ellertson STRETCHES barrels....... this is a very different animal than making a barrel "stiff." Stretching involves jacking the barrel out like a rubber band, making it long enough that as it heats up it never grows enough to overcome the initial stretching.

Harold Vaughn didn't ever try this sort of stuff but there are several other posters here on the board, both US and OZ have crazy barrel stretching contingents. Here's an older thread which names some of the culprits at large... maybe you'll pique their interest.

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?50148-Simple-question-on-tension-barrels

hth
al
 
Joe Salt said:
Jay I wish I lived close enough to one of the Cryo places cause I would try it again. Had one done years ago and it shot very well after that, probably the same reason some rifles like tuners! Sold the rifle to Ken Ridenour he sold it to a guy down in I think Vergina his first name was Jim can't think of the last. He called me and wanted to know why I sold it cause it shot so well, Told him I needed to sell that to buy another Action. So it may help some , you're out a few buck but like I've always said try it you might like it!
Hay Charles don't let them get you down, gives me something new to talk about. I get a few chuckles and say wish they were next to me on a bench!


Joe Salt
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Joe,

John Myer at Custom Gunsmithing in Boyce, VA (just outside Winchester) has the cyro setup and can do it for you.
 
What would yall say offers the most options for fine-tuning, between a barrel block, a barrel tuner, and a free-floated barrel?

Obviously the free-floated is gonna be the most simple, but which would allow you to squeeze the most accuracy out of the rifle in yalls` experience?
 
jbhotrod said:
What would yall say offers the most options for fine-tuning, between a barrel block, a barrel tuner, and a free-floated barrel?

Obviously the free-floated is gonna be the most simple, but which would allow you to squeeze the most accuracy out of the rifle in yalls` experience?
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I think if your talking heavy gun. Then I like a barrel block. It takes all the weight off the action plus tends to stiffen everything up. Matt
 
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