Mathmatician needed ....

I still contend the op doesn't have enough information............but IF the crosshair is actually plumb to the bore centerline at the muzzle (rare) .................. then I'll agree with Greg that the induced horizontal component is 1.74"


:)

I see nothing in the op to indicate that 16moa = a new zero at 600yds. I can crank on 16moa with either a Sharps or a 6.5X.284 quite easily.

al
 
BTW.... has anyone in this thread ever seen a barrel chucked up "Gordy Gritters Style" and had some runout? Or does anyone have an opinion regarding barrel straightness as it relates to this question?

Say you've got five 8" twist 6BR barrels..... and just for giggles you DO have your scope directly over the chamber when the rifle is level....

And you DO then tilt the scope "1 degree clockwise" as viewed from the rear.

And the 5 barrels all print within say 5" of each other at 100yds......

Any change to the 1.74" figger barrel to barrel?

I'll make up an example:

Just for modeling purposes let's say that barrel #1 is the fictional straight barrel......it all dials to centerline, shoots to centerline. It's just like in the pixtures.

But barrel #2 is a little bent, and indexed wrong, such that it prints the whole 5" right of center.

Any change to the 1.74" figger?


al
 
I see nothing in the op to indicate that 16moa = a new zero at 600yds. I can crank on 16moa with either a Sharps or a 6.5X.284 quite easily.

al

You're right Al. Trajectory isn't part of the solution. If the sight adjustment is 16 moa the Sharps and the 6.5 will both hit on a vertical plane 1.75" right at 600 yds, one way above the aim point and one way, way below the aim point.

Greg
 
You're right Al. Trajectory isn't part of the solution. If the sight adjustment is 16 moa the Sharps and the 6.5 will both hit on a vertical plane 1.75" right at 600 yds, one way above the aim point and one way, way below the aim point.

Greg

PROVIDED the crosshair intersection is directly above the bore. :) Which is kinda' hard to establish with a canted scope. I'm furthermore saying that if he trajectory intersects the 100yd zero from any sort of angle other than vertical......then trajectory IS part of the solution. (Which you probably agree with, I'm just sayin'....)
 
Greg .....

The question came up after designing a tool for leveling a scope within half a degree. (It takes about one minute) I can also shoot with this tool attached.

- Innovative

....and the tool??? The sliding V-block tool with the plumb-bob string obviously has some error in it with reading the bubble and lining up on the string. The feeler guage stack between the picatinny base and flat of the bottom of the turret body is OK and works in a pinch....assuming the base is square with the bore axis.

It takes some practice and trial and error to not change the angle of the dangle when tightening the cap screws down.

.....so, are you going to sell these tools?
 
Will be available soon .....

Jeff in OH ........

I've got these scope leveling tools almost ready. They should be for sale on my website next week, and this is what they look like. It's nothing revolutionary, and it's no high tech tool, but it works perfectly.


You'll need to focus on a distant horizontal (or) vertical straight edge to use as a reference for your crosshairs. Once this magnetic level shows your "rifle" is perfectly level, you can rotate the scope until the crosshairs are parallel. You can also use a hanging string (with a weight hanging on it) as an accurate vertical reference. Then tighten your scope rings. This is easily performed while using a bipod or using sandbags.

Sometimes it's the details that make all the difference. This particular level has a magnetic base that's strong enough to lift most rifles off the bench. (That makes it real different from other units on the market.) In fact, I've fired my 300 Win. Mag. with this level attached, and it helps a lot at 1,000 yard shooting. This particular level is accurate enough to easily set your crosshairs within half a degree, and it attaches to almost any steel scope base that has .130" clearance under the scope.


- Innovative
 
I think that the important thing is to have the center of the scope over the center of the barrel, before adjusting the rotation of the scope so that the vertical cross hair is parallel to a plumb line. It would be interesting to see if the readings obtained with your tool and the vertical reticle instrument were in agreement on a series of factory rifles. As far as I can tell, at a fixed distance, as in a target match, the main issue is that the cant, or lack of, be the same for all shots.
 
Damn. Everyone is getting lost in the "Crosshairs" part of the problem. Change the scope to a target DOT with NO crosshairs - and cant the adjustment knobs out of plumb. Same problem, same answers. Actually harder to figure out which problem to solve though.
 
If .........

If ........ your receiver is drilled directly toward the center of the receiver (and aligned with the bore), and your scope base is made parallel, and your lapped rings center the scope on the base, you should not need to worry about your scope being mounted directly over the bore. If those conditions aren't met, there's not much you can do about it, and the difference is too slight to lose sleep over.

When you're shooting at the same known distance all the time, the cant of your scope becomes a moot point. However, if you shoot targets at different distances, the leveling of your scope is important to avoid adding "bonus" horizontal alignment when changing elevation.

The scope leveler is also handy when you make a 600 yard shot, and you think your rifle is level . . . . remember, it can surprise you by about 1.74" when your scope is off by just one degree.

- Innovative
 
Vibe,
In the method that I described, there is an assumption that the reticle is aligned with the directions that the turrets move their intersection. In fact, this may not be the case. If one is a long range shooter who uses his turrets to be able to hold on target at various ranges, this correspondence is important to getting the change that you want. (as is having any internal barrel curvature properly oriented) To determine if there is a problem of this type, takes more work, to check the scopes tracking. And if a problem is discovered, short of sending it in for service, and hoping that the factory gets it right the second time, the only alternative is to have some sort of reference level, mounted on the rifle. Ideally, LOS and bullet trajectory should be coincident when viewed from above. Agree, disagree, comments?
 
Larry,

....loosen the 2 or 4 allen head screws on the top of each scope ring and take the CANT out. All will be well and peace will reign supreme once more! Be well, shoot well......... Jan
 
Jan .......

Well ..... there's a bit more to it that that. When setting the crosshairs level, your rifle also needs to be perfectly level. (That's the purpose of this tool.) It's also important to ensure they're both level when taking a long range shot.

- Innovative
 
Vibe,
In the method that I described, there is an assumption that the reticule is aligned with the directions that the turrets move their intersection.
I know this Boyd, but it seemed that so many were missing this point of the exercise by focusing on whether the hairs themselves were plumb, when it's the adjustment directions that are much more important.
 
Boyd .........

What possible means are you considering to align the center of the scope over the bore that would improve any production rifle? The inescapable fact is, that if your crosshairs are canted (and you shoot at different distances) changing your elevation will add "bonus" windage that gets progressively worse at longer distances.

- Innovative
 
If you put the rifle in a secure mount, aimed at a point at the bottom of a truly vertical line, and run the vertical turret to the settings required for progressively longer distances, the intersection of the cross hairs may come off of the line. If the angle of divergence is noted, the scope can be repositioned so that when the same test is made, the point of intersection stays on the line. Once this has been done. some sort of on scope level can be mounted with the bubble leveled and secured. in the case where the vertical cross hair is out of alignment with the tracking of the intersection, once the correction has been made, there is still the problem of having to rely on a level to see when the rifle is properly aligned. In any case, doing the entire alignment with the CL of the scope directly over the CL of the action helps insure that the initial sight in distance is not at the intersection of a horizontal angle of the LOS and trajectory, which will diverge beyond that point. As I mentioned earlier, this has the further requirement that any internal barrel curvature be clocked into the vertical plane. On the other hand, I have mounted many scopes using simpler procedures with good results....large targets, moderate distances, one shot kills. On the other hand, if for an egg shoot or really tight, really long precision, I would go the limit.
 
If you put the rifle in a secure mount, aimed at the bottom of a vertical line, and run the vertical turret up for progressively longer distances, the intersection of the cross hairs WILL come off of the center line.

Besides leveling the crosshairs, our scope level can also be attached to the rifle for the actual shooting. Do you actually have a practical method to align the CL of the scope directly over the CL of the barrel?

I have mounted many scopes in the last 40 years too. When I shoot at 1,000 yards .... I make sure the crosshairs AND the rifle are level. Without considering the curvature of the sun and the moon, that's the best you can do.

- Innovative
 
Boyd, Thanks I was beging to think everyone's scope was canted and they didn't know how to fix it. All I use at 1000 yards is a plumb bob with a black line on a target that is turned around, level your gun in the bags then adjust the vertical cross hair with the line. Don't complicate things Guys.

Joe Salt
 
Boyd .....

I've seen that unit before, and it's a very clever concept. However, you would need to use the "complete" unit (at 8 times the cost) to get the exact same benefits.

Have you ever used the complete Vertical Reference Instrument?

- Innovative
 
Back
Top