Lubing case necks

G

Gene Pool

Guest
Gentlemen,
I know this is an elementary question to most of you bench rest shooters, but how do you suggest lubricating the inside of case necks for the expander ball? Lately I have been using white graphite from Midway, but there is still quiet a bit of tension when the expander ball goes through. Many years ago I used old fashioned case-oil lube, then cleaned it the best I could. But then I was interested only in hunting accuracy.

What do you suggest?

Thanks in advance,
Gene
 
Assuming that you are not going to change dies (which is what you should do, but may not) The best dry lube that I have tried is sold by Sinclair International and is a Redding product. it is called Imperial Application Media. You stick the neck of an unlubed case in to the container of dry lube charged small ceramic balls, and give it a twist. then you can lube the outside of the case normally. I should add that prior to dipping and twisting you should run an old bore brush in and out of the neck 2-3 times, but do not clean to the brass. Leave a uniform haze of powder fouling. What die are you using?
 
Boyd Allen said:
Leave a uniform haze of powder fouling. What die are you using?
Click to expand...

Thank you for the reply. At present I am using RCBS neck sizing dies and Forrester benchrest seating dies for all calibers.

I have on order a Wilson neck sizing die (with bushing) and seating die for my .243. It looks like perhaps I should go that route with all calibers.

Gene
 
Gene -
Howdy !

I used to use the stuff that came with the ( former ) Bonanza inside neck lube kit.
I believe the stuff was " motor Mica ".

When it ran out, I used simple graphite lube, in a plastic squeez bottle I bought @ NAPA.
I just poofed some into the Bonanaza red neck lube box, whenever lube replenishment became necessary.

The Imperial dry product ( from Sinclair ) has little balls incorporated into the mix, to help impinge the lube onto the case' neck inside walls/outside neck walls.

Some published studies have claimed inside neck lubed' cases are an aid to obtaining more-uniform bullet-to-neck tension.
From what I've seen, I'm inclined to agree.

With regards,
357Mag
 
If you are using rifles that have factory chambers, it may be that not turning necks is the way to go and that instead of Wilson neck dies, you may want to look into Lee Collet dies. I have experience with both, and if you combine the Collet Die with a body die in a two stage sizing process, I think that you will be very pleased as to how straight your ammunition turns out. I would stick with the Forster seater.
 
Thank you for the ideas and suggestions. I appreciate you freely sharing your experience.

Gene
 
A long time ago, using a factory barreled Remington .222 I compared the accuracy of turned and unturned necks. I saw no improvement in accuracy from turning necks. I believe that the neck to chamber clearance for unturned brass was around .006. Turning the brass increased that, so that the cases were worked more by each sizing, and there was no improvement in accuracy. Others, that I have discussed this with, have reported the same result. Just reporting.... You will note that I did not say that he absolutely should not turn, just that it may be that not turning is the way to go. In my case, it was. A little more unsolicited information...It has been my experience that using standard, one piece neck dies, with expander balls, that do too much "work" due to the small ID of the neck portion of the die, are the absolute worst way to size cases, in terms of how straight the brass is, after being sized. Also, if neck sizing is desired and the amount of reduction is large, bushings dies may not be the way to go. In those specific cases, I think that Lee Collet dies produce superior results, with the qualification that I would opt for another brand of seater. This is not an argument against good brass, but with a large chamber, I would go with the best brass, Lapua if available, and leave it alone.
 
One thing I have done with necks to be fired in factory chambers is to turn them so they clean up about 75% of the neck. They are then "more even." Sadly, unlike Boyd, I never even tested this notion, so I have no idea if it really helps.

When using the non-bushing dies that oversize the neck & use an expander ball, I *have* tested and found superior taking the ball out of the die, then using an expander mandrel as is used for neck turning. I've even found this helpful with bushing dies & competition chamberings -- use .001 too small a bushing, then make a mandrel and expand up. Now whether or not this helps if the necks are annealed after every firing, I don't know.

Just to show how crazy we can get, I forgot about the Lee collet die. All that thinking and work with my factory .223 when there is a better & simpler solution -- I believe I'll get on the phone Monday & order one.
 
The Lee collet dies are great, I use one for my 223 Rem. bench gun. I'm going to have a collet die made for my 6.5X47 Lapua in the near future.

Tom
 
I believe that turning necks for already oversized chambers is worse than a waste of time, it actually makes to problem of inbore yaw or cant worse

In my casual testing (several hundred rounds fired and noted and some bullets fired into a snow bank ;) ) I've found turned necks to shoot worse than un-turned when neck clearances exceed .003-.004.

asusual,dissentingopinionsby

:p

al
 
al
so your saying even though the cases have variance's in neck thickness that neck turning for a chamber that has .004 expansion + is worse then leaving them alone ? Do you think annealing cases would have any effect on this ?
thanks
 
It has been my experence that if you are not turning necks, then the Lee Collect dies will give the best results/concentricity.
 
I've tried turning necks for factory chambers, and about the only thing that happened was that the thinner necks developed splits sooner than with full thickness necks. Accuracy wasn't improved at all. The best thing to do for a factory chamber is to measure case necks for thickness. Those that vary no more than 0.001" will give the best accuracy if they're sized properly. If the necks vary in thickness from case to case as well as around the neck a neck expander is pretty much mandatory to get bullets to seat with any degree of uniformity in bullet pull. As Al Nyhus says Redding sells a floating carbide expander which works very well, and with the right sized bushing in their bushing FL dies minimum neck sizing is needed.

I've also found that FL sizing frequently works best with factory chambers, but only bump the shoulders back ~0.002.
 
1919Spooky said:
al
so your saying even though the cases have variance's in neck thickness that neck turning for a chamber that has .004 expansion + is worse then leaving them alone ? Do you think annealing cases would have any effect on this ?
thanks
Click to expand...

Yes,

and no I do not think annealing helps in any way.

al
 
Boyd Allen said:
I think that Lee Collet dies produce superior results, with the qualification that I would opt for another brand of seater. This is not an argument against good brass, but with a large chamber, I would go with the best brass, Lapua if available, and leave it alone.
Click to expand...

Boyd, I certainly agree with that portion, but I have to disagree with the "...expander balls ... are the absolute worst way to size cases, in terms of how straight the brass, after being sized." I use RCBS resizing dies for my .223 reloading. Based on my results using the Sinclair concentricity gauge, my measured runout is typically right at .001". I may be unusually lucky (which would not be a normal occurrence) but that's good enough for incredible accuracy in most bench rest squirrel shooting matches I take part in.
Back to lubricants - is anyone working with dry moly. lube for neck lube?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I was saying that the old traditional one piece neck dies, that over size necks, and then drag an expander ball back through them are really bad for concentricity.

In other posts I have pointed out that if the sizing portion of a die, or bushing has an ID that results in light work for the expander ball, that using one (an expander) can actually be an advantage when necks are not turned.

With your die and brass what are the neck diameters of your brass with and without the expander, and are you turning necks?

My point was that any time that there is a large difference between the neck diameter as it comes out of the neck portion of a die (or a bushing) as compared to when it has been enlarged by an expander ball, the axial pull (due to friction) on the case as the neck is being expanded can, and more often than not does, cause the case to yield asymmetrically at the neck shoulder junction, resulting in increased runout. An additional factor, that comes into play with traditional neck dies, is that there is nothing to hold the neck in alignment with the body of the case. At least with FL dies of this type, the expander can be raised so that expansion is begun while part of the neck is still in the neck portion of the die, which helps maintain alignment. On the other hand, if the thickness of the brass and/or the ID of the neck portion of the die are such that there is little expander ball friction then, indeed good results can be obtained. If your die produces consistent .001 runout using unturned brass, it is typical of its type, and I would speculate that the ID of the neck portion is larger than usual, or your brass is thinner, or a little of both.
 
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