Lothar Walthar BBLs
- Thread starter Worker
- Start date
LW barrels...
are, so far as BR goes, unexplored territory. LW would have you believe they make barrels able to compete in any discipline - their claims are, as yet, unproven in BR competition, where only demonstrated performance sells barrels.
So far as their barrel material goes - there is no such thing as a magic steel, and they don't have one either.
mhb - Mike
are, so far as BR goes, unexplored territory. LW would have you believe they make barrels able to compete in any discipline - their claims are, as yet, unproven in BR competition, where only demonstrated performance sells barrels.
So far as their barrel material goes - there is no such thing as a magic steel, and they don't have one either.
mhb - Mike
A
Ax238
Guest
And I have several and they shoot extremely well, clean up fast and aren't finicky. That's why I have more than one.
A
Ackman
Guest
They use a different stainless alloy that's supposed to be tougher and more resistant to the firecracking that comes from expansion-contraction with each shot. I think there's something to it, but you can judge for yourself. My 25" Walther 22-250AI has about 1200-1400 rds of 50gr/4115fps loads. The throat has grown about .010".
There was no break-in other than load workup. The first 35rds produced NO copper fouling. The next 45rds, no fouling. Next outing was 75rds on prairie dogs, still no fouling. Many times it's been overheated too hot to touch. Still, after 90-100rds of that same 4115 load there'll be only the slightest slightest trace of pale blue. The barrel just doesn't foul. Accuracy is identical to a Hart barrel chambered for the same cartridge.
There was no break-in other than load workup. The first 35rds produced NO copper fouling. The next 45rds, no fouling. Next outing was 75rds on prairie dogs, still no fouling. Many times it's been overheated too hot to touch. Still, after 90-100rds of that same 4115 load there'll be only the slightest slightest trace of pale blue. The barrel just doesn't foul. Accuracy is identical to a Hart barrel chambered for the same cartridge.
Butch Lambert
Active member
Benchrest shooters have no loyalty. They shoot the barrels that perform. LWs have failed to do that. They may be suited to hunting rifles. They have a barrel that is called LW50 I believe. It is probably 17-4. It has to be machined at a much higher speed and feed to get a good job. The ones that I have machined and checked do not have as close tolerance as the other BR quality barrels. This is my personal experience only.
Butch
Butch
Precisely, Butch.
BR shooters use what works best - they'll try anything that seems likely to show an advantage, but won't continue to use anything that doesn't perform.
LW's proprietary LW50 steel is, indeed, 17-4 PH to all practical intents and purposes. My buddy, Bernie, the metallurgical engineer and barrel maker once had a discussion on this issue with Mr. Woodall of LW (at the SHOT show, I believe). Mr. Woodall was incensed that anyone should know the formulation of their patented, proprietary steel, and said that legal action could be taken against anyone who improperly disclosed that information - Bernie agreed, to a point, but told Mr. W. that that did not really apply to the actual patent holder(s) - and that Mr. W. might profit from a study of the names listed on that patent document (yes, Bernie's is among them).
Machining information for LW's wonder steel is available from LW - you can decide whether you want to do it their way.
By all means give LW barrels a fair test, if you want to - then, please report actual results in this forum - forget hype and unsupported claims. That way, we all learn something, and, if there is anything to be gained, we'll all be able to take advantage of it.
mhb - Mike
BR shooters use what works best - they'll try anything that seems likely to show an advantage, but won't continue to use anything that doesn't perform.
LW's proprietary LW50 steel is, indeed, 17-4 PH to all practical intents and purposes. My buddy, Bernie, the metallurgical engineer and barrel maker once had a discussion on this issue with Mr. Woodall of LW (at the SHOT show, I believe). Mr. Woodall was incensed that anyone should know the formulation of their patented, proprietary steel, and said that legal action could be taken against anyone who improperly disclosed that information - Bernie agreed, to a point, but told Mr. W. that that did not really apply to the actual patent holder(s) - and that Mr. W. might profit from a study of the names listed on that patent document (yes, Bernie's is among them).
Machining information for LW's wonder steel is available from LW - you can decide whether you want to do it their way.
By all means give LW barrels a fair test, if you want to - then, please report actual results in this forum - forget hype and unsupported claims. That way, we all learn something, and, if there is anything to be gained, we'll all be able to take advantage of it.
mhb - Mike
jackie schmidt
New member
LW Barrels
The material is some sort of precipitating hardenning Stainless,similiar to 17-4 age hardenned at 1050 degrees F. Heck, any body with $450 can take a piece and have a complete destructive test and chemical analysis performed.
The single big reason that many Benchrest Gunsmiths shy away from this material is it is much more difficult to work with. Years back, I had this very discussion with the Representative of LW, I told him if they would get off of that steel and manufacture R416 barrels to the exacting standards that they claim, then they would probably be in a better position to sell the barrels to The Benchrest Community.
The simple fact is, many precision Benchrest Gunsmiths are very small operations. All you have to do is go tho the LW web-site and look at their machining recomendations, and you can see why many Gunsmiths simply say,"you have to be kidding". I am not about to stick one of my good reamers into that".
In short, the operations require more speed, carbide tooling, a flush system, and the need to "polish" the throat and lead angle due to the difficulty in aquiring a good finish in that area.
But, Gunsmiths who have set up to perform the chambering operations according to LW's specifications have reported good results.
Barrel life, the ONLY selling point for using this steel, is a non issue in 100-200 yard Benchrest. So, primary reason for using that particular alloy is lost on us. Considering how well our current barrels perform, I doubt they could do much better, if even as good. So, putting up with all of the hassles in the machining, just to get a barrel that might be as good, and might last a little longer, is not something most of us want to do.
Think about it. There IS a reason that the major accuracy barrel manufacturers use 416R. It gives them the best results in achiving a rifled ID that is up to the precision standards that extreme accuracy demands.
It tickles me when shooters, (usually non-competitors), come on this site and say we are all a bunch of lemmings. Well, I am nothing but a Benchrest Whore. I have absolutly no loyalty to any product. I am interested in one thing. Winning. I go with what I believe will help me win. Over the years I have refined a particular combination that works where it has too, in The Competitive Arena. If something comes along that some one says is better, it will have to be proven better than what I am using now, or I am not going to waste my time, and money.
I had a conversation with the LW representative a number of years ago. He stated that the barrels he would send me had a ".100 or better agging capability". I told him I doubted any barrel was that good, but I would sure like to get a bunch of the bullets that he performed his test with.
If you are building a Live Varmint Rifle, where the typical chamber will fearture lots of powder and lots of velocity, the LW Barrel would be a good choice. For a Competitive 100-200 yard Benchrest Rifle, nobody has proven the worth of LW in that Arena......jackie
The material is some sort of precipitating hardenning Stainless,similiar to 17-4 age hardenned at 1050 degrees F. Heck, any body with $450 can take a piece and have a complete destructive test and chemical analysis performed.
The single big reason that many Benchrest Gunsmiths shy away from this material is it is much more difficult to work with. Years back, I had this very discussion with the Representative of LW, I told him if they would get off of that steel and manufacture R416 barrels to the exacting standards that they claim, then they would probably be in a better position to sell the barrels to The Benchrest Community.
The simple fact is, many precision Benchrest Gunsmiths are very small operations. All you have to do is go tho the LW web-site and look at their machining recomendations, and you can see why many Gunsmiths simply say,"you have to be kidding". I am not about to stick one of my good reamers into that".
In short, the operations require more speed, carbide tooling, a flush system, and the need to "polish" the throat and lead angle due to the difficulty in aquiring a good finish in that area.
But, Gunsmiths who have set up to perform the chambering operations according to LW's specifications have reported good results.
Barrel life, the ONLY selling point for using this steel, is a non issue in 100-200 yard Benchrest. So, primary reason for using that particular alloy is lost on us. Considering how well our current barrels perform, I doubt they could do much better, if even as good. So, putting up with all of the hassles in the machining, just to get a barrel that might be as good, and might last a little longer, is not something most of us want to do.
Think about it. There IS a reason that the major accuracy barrel manufacturers use 416R. It gives them the best results in achiving a rifled ID that is up to the precision standards that extreme accuracy demands.
It tickles me when shooters, (usually non-competitors), come on this site and say we are all a bunch of lemmings. Well, I am nothing but a Benchrest Whore. I have absolutly no loyalty to any product. I am interested in one thing. Winning. I go with what I believe will help me win. Over the years I have refined a particular combination that works where it has too, in The Competitive Arena. If something comes along that some one says is better, it will have to be proven better than what I am using now, or I am not going to waste my time, and money.
I had a conversation with the LW representative a number of years ago. He stated that the barrels he would send me had a ".100 or better agging capability". I told him I doubted any barrel was that good, but I would sure like to get a bunch of the bullets that he performed his test with.
If you are building a Live Varmint Rifle, where the typical chamber will fearture lots of powder and lots of velocity, the LW Barrel would be a good choice. For a Competitive 100-200 yard Benchrest Rifle, nobody has proven the worth of LW in that Arena......jackie
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Ackman
Guest
It's true those barrels have to be machined a little differently. Some people like doing things their own way and don't want to deal with it. My riflebuilder does a lot of benchrest work and had no problems whatsoever chambering two of those centerfire barrels for me. But it is true that reamers dull more quickly. I have my own so that's not really a factor. And future reamers will probably be carbide simply because they don't cost a whole lot more. Actually LW makes more barrels than all the benchrest suppliers combined and that market would be a miniscule drop in the bucket. I doubt they care much about dealing with BR people.
I've been astounded at the performance of that one LW barrel. There's another one with a truck gun contour barrel which I haven't messed with yet. And a rimfire (rimfire barrels are 416 stainless) which has been terrific.
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mhb that's hilarious!
And having spent some time on the phone with Mr Woodall (BTW he used to come on this board with his rants
) I can just SEE his expression
Yup, his whole schtick is that "benchresters are stuck in the mud" or just plain too stupid to deal with it..... and Ol' Woody-"we make more barrels than anybody"-Woodall gets a lot of backing. From backyard hacks and varmint hunters.
It really does bend him over that his barrels get zero respect from BR shooters.
al
And having spent some time on the phone with Mr Woodall (BTW he used to come on this board with his rants
) I can just SEE his expression Yup, his whole schtick is that "benchresters are stuck in the mud" or just plain too stupid to deal with it..... and Ol' Woody-"we make more barrels than anybody"-Woodall gets a lot of backing. From backyard hacks and varmint hunters.
It really does bend him over that his barrels get zero respect from BR shooters.
al
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Ackman
Guest
Be as cutesy and smartass as you want, but mine has been just outstanding. I know other varmint shooters who've had real good results with them. And don't go acting like you're superior to anyone else.
jackie schmidt
New member
Ackman
Remington probably makes more barrels than all of the custom manufacturers as well. heck, for that matter, so does Adams and Bennet. Nobody is using one on a true Benchrest Rifle.
You are correct. There is a specific market for LW barrels. And, that market includes many more shooters than does Benchrest. If I were building a high end Live Varmint Rifle in one of the "big case-small bullet" chamberings, I would see no problem with using one.
The problem is, LW does not understand the Benchrest Market. If they did, they would manufacture their barrels from 416R, and then we would see if their manufacturing techniques were as much of a "cut above" as they claim.
Heck, many barrels that are manufactured specifically to be used in Benchrest are not as good as we wish they were. I can remember about 10 years ago, a shooter won a big match with a brand of barrel that had just been introduced. Everybody then wanted one. But, it turned out that the percentage of "great ones" from this particular barrel manufacturer was about the same as all of the rest. Many shooters just went back to what they had used before. That manufacturer no longer makes barrels.
If LW did decide to manufacture precision barrels from 416R, their percentage of "great barrels" to just "good barrels" would probably be about the same as what we have now..........jackie
Remington probably makes more barrels than all of the custom manufacturers as well. heck, for that matter, so does Adams and Bennet. Nobody is using one on a true Benchrest Rifle.
You are correct. There is a specific market for LW barrels. And, that market includes many more shooters than does Benchrest. If I were building a high end Live Varmint Rifle in one of the "big case-small bullet" chamberings, I would see no problem with using one.
The problem is, LW does not understand the Benchrest Market. If they did, they would manufacture their barrels from 416R, and then we would see if their manufacturing techniques were as much of a "cut above" as they claim.
Heck, many barrels that are manufactured specifically to be used in Benchrest are not as good as we wish they were. I can remember about 10 years ago, a shooter won a big match with a brand of barrel that had just been introduced. Everybody then wanted one. But, it turned out that the percentage of "great ones" from this particular barrel manufacturer was about the same as all of the rest. Many shooters just went back to what they had used before. That manufacturer no longer makes barrels.
If LW did decide to manufacture precision barrels from 416R, their percentage of "great barrels" to just "good barrels" would probably be about the same as what we have now..........jackie
zeke mccune
Member
To Jackie Schmidt
Hi:
Just curious. How many LW barrels have you chambered?
Franchi
Hi:
Just curious. How many LW barrels have you chambered?
Franchi
And statistically, someone makes the best barrel, or the winningest barrel, but nobody dares to say who this is, in fear of being slapped down.
I always laugh, as to some of my questions, I'll get several pm's from people, who, while fearfully looking over their shoulder, give their opinions.
As the snipers browse the forum, looking for someone who dares speak up........
I always laugh, as to some of my questions, I'll get several pm's from people, who, while fearfully looking over their shoulder, give their opinions.
As the snipers browse the forum, looking for someone who dares speak up........
LW barrels.
A bunch of us were gathered around shooting the bull at the Cactus classic BR tournament a couple years ago, including a couple of Hall of Famers, swapping LW barrel stories.
Turns out the one common theme that we were all fed by the LW people, were their quality acceptance procedures for all BR quality barrel batchs..............called the "LW Bubba test"= every BR barrel was capable of .250 moa accuracy or less while fired off sandbags layed over the hood of the pick up truck of the LW employee in charge of "live fire" quality control.
When we all found out that every one of us was fed this exact same story (as real world proof of superior BR accuracy), we all laughed at the absurdity of the logic, and it was the last time that I ever remember anybody in our region ever again discussing or considering LW barrels for competition purposes, and the use of these barrels quickly disappeared, thereafter, from the entire U.S. BR competition market.
The only positive LW BR competition story that I can remember, is Wilbur mentioning that he recieved a free LW barrel for his gun loaner program, that he felt was capable of competitive groups. I dont know if Wilbur is using LW barrels on his own competition guns, I havent seen any mention or equipment listings to indicate such.........................Don
A bunch of us were gathered around shooting the bull at the Cactus classic BR tournament a couple years ago, including a couple of Hall of Famers, swapping LW barrel stories.
Turns out the one common theme that we were all fed by the LW people, were their quality acceptance procedures for all BR quality barrel batchs..............called the "LW Bubba test"= every BR barrel was capable of .250 moa accuracy or less while fired off sandbags layed over the hood of the pick up truck of the LW employee in charge of "live fire" quality control.
When we all found out that every one of us was fed this exact same story (as real world proof of superior BR accuracy), we all laughed at the absurdity of the logic, and it was the last time that I ever remember anybody in our region ever again discussing or considering LW barrels for competition purposes, and the use of these barrels quickly disappeared, thereafter, from the entire U.S. BR competition market.
The only positive LW BR competition story that I can remember, is Wilbur mentioning that he recieved a free LW barrel for his gun loaner program, that he felt was capable of competitive groups. I dont know if Wilbur is using LW barrels on his own competition guns, I havent seen any mention or equipment listings to indicate such.........................Don
Butch Lambert
Active member
Zeke, What is your point? Are you asking if Jackie knows of what he speaks? He has machined a thing or 2. Yes he has experience with Woody and his barrels also. Call Pete Peiper at Precision Barrel Work. He was the go to barrel fitter for the LW Blackstar barrels several years ago. He has done a lot of them. Call Pete and ask him. Don't sell Alinwa short either. I talked with Woody several years ago and he needs anger management classes.
Butch
Butch
For Alinwa, Ref. W. Woodall
As you may or may not remember, I was, perhaps, the primary 'Mr. Interlocutor' to Woody's 'Mr. Bones' (reference to the old-time minstrel shows, for the younger folks here - Mr. I. being the 'straight man', and Mr. B. providing the snappy, comic patter) in his sallies on this board in those days. I doubt I've ever wasted so much honest effort in an attempt to pry useful information out of anyone, or merely conduct a worthwhile exchange of technical information and ideas - the best I could get out of him was a blanket condemnation for failing to understand modern technology as opposed to the BR 'stuck-in-the-mud' mindset. Maybe so - but if I hoped to depend on him to explain his version of 'modern technology' as applied to barrel making and BR, and, perhaps raise me (us) out of our morass of ignorance and backwardness, it was a forlorn hope - he was very generous with verbiage, but entirely too niggardly (which just means stingy) with facts. But I swear I wasn't out to 'get' him - only trying to get straight answers to direct questions, so we'd all learn something - we didn't.
But, the reports I've had of other (including face-to-face) exchanges with Mr. W. indicate pretty unanimously that that's just the kind of guy he is.
mhb - Mike
As you may or may not remember, I was, perhaps, the primary 'Mr. Interlocutor' to Woody's 'Mr. Bones' (reference to the old-time minstrel shows, for the younger folks here - Mr. I. being the 'straight man', and Mr. B. providing the snappy, comic patter) in his sallies on this board in those days. I doubt I've ever wasted so much honest effort in an attempt to pry useful information out of anyone, or merely conduct a worthwhile exchange of technical information and ideas - the best I could get out of him was a blanket condemnation for failing to understand modern technology as opposed to the BR 'stuck-in-the-mud' mindset. Maybe so - but if I hoped to depend on him to explain his version of 'modern technology' as applied to barrel making and BR, and, perhaps raise me (us) out of our morass of ignorance and backwardness, it was a forlorn hope - he was very generous with verbiage, but entirely too niggardly (which just means stingy) with facts. But I swear I wasn't out to 'get' him - only trying to get straight answers to direct questions, so we'd all learn something - we didn't.
But, the reports I've had of other (including face-to-face) exchanges with Mr. W. indicate pretty unanimously that that's just the kind of guy he is.
mhb - Mike
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A
Ackman
Guest
The problem isn't about not understanding the Benchrest market. The problem is the BR market thinking it's the center of the shooting universe, when really.....it isn't. Devotees think it's wonderful but most shooters just don't care about BR.