Load Tuning for temperature

R

RAG2

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I've been out of the game for a while (not sure I was ever really in it :)...but I was hoping some could share their personal experience.

How much do you find that you need to adjust (PPC, N133, 66gr) your powder for a 20 degree tempature swing.

I am going to be doing some pre-loading (not for match). I seem to recall backing off my Harrell's 2 baby clicks (2/6ths of a full click) for a 10 degree temp increase...but it's been a while. Just your personal findings/opinions would be great. Thanks!
 
I've been out of the game for a while (not sure I was ever really in it :)...but I was hoping some could share their personal experience.

How much do you find that you need to adjust (PPC, N133, 66gr) your powder for a 20 degree temperature swing.

I am going to be doing some pre-loading (not for match). I seem to recall backing off my Harrell's 2 baby clicks (2/6ths of a full click) for a 10 degree temp increase...but it's been a while. Just your personal findings/opinions would be great. Thanks!

Here is an excerpt from a question posed by russel m. and the answer provided by Gene Beggs that I pulled from my Benchrest file. Hope this helps:

Q: 6ppc using v 133 powder. Is it just humidity or is humidity & temp that affect tune? When the Humidity goes down I go up on the powder to keep my gun in tune? Is it that the powder kernals weigh less with lower humidity so I have to go up on the charge? Is it that the conditions change the harmonics of the barrel. Is it that the bullet travels through the air differently with the changes in conditions? russell m

A: Changes in air density makes our rifles to go out of tune. If the bullets are exiting when the barrel is stopped at either the top or bottom of the swing, the rifle is in tune. If the atmosphere becomes less dense due to an increase in temperature, the bullet encounters less resistance as it travels down the bore and exits early before the barrel comes to a complete stop, in which case, we can either reduce the load or adjust the tuner to compensate. I think it's much simpler and easier to use a tuner. You NEVER have to change the load and can make your adjustments at the line.

Atmospheric density is the result of pressure altitude, temperature and to a far lesser degree, moisture content. Contrary to what many believe, dry air is heavier. Steam rises and it's 100 percent saturated.

So .. altitude, temp and humidity in that order. What do we mean by altitude? Range elevation above sea level. The Midland Shooters Association range is 2800 feet above sea level; that never changes so we can forget about it. Yes, slight variations in barametric pressure can change the pressure altitude but for all practical purposes, we can forget about it.

****Temperature? This is the big one! It's actually the only thing you must concern yourself with. The temperature range from being perfectly in tune and being completely out is 20 degrees F.****

Yep, if your rifle is perfectly in tune during the first match of the day when temperature is 70 it will be completely out of tune when the temp reaches 90 if you do nothing to compensate.

To keep the rifle in tune throughout the day, reduce the velocity 30 fps for each five degree increase in temp. With most powders, N133 being the classic example, this equates to one half click per five degrees. For example, let's say your rifle was in tune for the first match; temp was 70. Your Culver type measure was set on 54 clicks. When temp reaches 75 the proper click value is 53.5, for 80, 53, 75, 52.5 and for 90F, 52 clicks. Would you have ever believed it would take two full numbers to stay in tune with a twenty degree spread?

"Now wait a minute Beggs; are you telling me relative humidity has nothing to do with it?" Yep, that's right; very little, so little that for all practical purposes we can ignore it
 
Wow, that's sorta depressing. Makes pre-loading (for match or varmint blasting) pretty difficult to stay in tune. I never would have thought such large adjustments were needed. Thanks.
 
Rag I have been working with this for a little while now.
I use to do a lot of reading and question asking about temp and humidity in regard to loading HOWEVER one thing that you have to consider is that 99% of the people you are asking are loading at the range in the pool of temp and humidity change.
In the past some (not all) of the notable shooters reference the effects of temp and humidity as being on the powder. They said that in the morning the powder has more humidity and is larger and later in the day when it gets hot the powder loses some of that and becomes smaller. Since most use throwers of some sort this would have a distinctive effect.

Having said all of that last year I gave some thought to the fact that if I wanted to find tune I needed to have everything done under the same conditions so that as the day wore on while tuning there wouldnt be an issue with it.
I preloaded my ammo for tuning at home at a certain temp and humidity.
Later I took that same thought to loading the best tune load at home under same temp and humidity condition.
The last match of the year last year I went preloaded. It worked out pretty well. My barrel is worn out but the first 2 matches of this year I did the same thing. It seems to be working real well. I still get some of the small group pots and I still pull the trigger when I shouldnt have. But it seem to shoot better for me when I have eliminated that variable.
The only thing that can be left is how the external temp can affect the powder burn inside a sealed case and so far no one can positively give evidence of that because of loading powder exposed to some of the elements.
One thing about it Humidity can not have any effect on the burning of the powder once sealed inside a case. Still out on what affect the external temp can have.

I also noticed a month or so ago that one of the new possible world records was shot with preloaded ammo.
One thing about it theres a lot less to carry to a match and a lot more time to study the wind flags.
 
So Vern, reading what you have done, would you say that for his first trip, in addition to a larger amount of best guess loads that he should take a variety of test loads, so that he can improve his results for the following year?
 
Vern, referencing post # 2 above, are you preloading to gve effect to temp changes during the day? If so, can you describe the details?
 
Boyd what I am saying in regard to tuning is that when I go to tune I load all of my loads at the house.
based on 3-4 different powder weights and seating depths.
If you are trying to find tune at the range while loading at the range you are trying to find tune while tune is actually changing due to conditions under which you load.
There are many that do tuning like this.
I have just taken it one step further. When I load for tune I load at 76 degrees and 40% humidity.
Since I have started preloading I create the same conditions in the house/loading room prior to trying to load.

Hunter I have not seen any changes in my groups due to temp or humidity while at the range when preloaded.
The only thing I have seen are errors in my flag reading or gun handling at the bench.
I am still testing the preloading theory at this point and with a worn out barrel at that.

Example: I was doing pretty good at 200 last sunday then in the last match I got caught in a let up and blew the group into a 2" agg killing group.
I was frustrated to say the least. HOWEVER I know that I am running short on bullets and time for future matches so my current load was 62gr flat base cheek. I used the same powder load and die setting and loaded up 10 65 gr bart boat tails just to try at the end of the day. After the 2" blowout with the time remaining I saw the condition sort of holding and I blew all 10 rounds down into the sighter as fast as I could send them.
They measured .413 for the 10 shot group.
It seems to be working for me but it may be different for others.

It has always been said that a large part of Benchrest is mental. For me I am hoping to at least take the worry out of what to do with the powder if I think something is going wrong.
Now I dont see the changes I used to but time will tell.

Edit: Hunter in re reading your question I dont see the groups grow or change nor do I see any difference in impact as the temp or humidity change throughout the day.
I believe sunday started at the commence fire with temps in the mid 60's maybe lower didnt check for sure, over cast and almost a mist but not quite... very high humidity. By the end of the day it was sunny windy and in the mid 80s, much lower humidity. POI was still the same except for the wind. Groups were still good if I did my part.
 
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Yeah, I always loaded at the match/range too.

Gosh, I might have to look into a barrel tuner at some point. Seems to me, if someone had to pre-load (for whatever reason), a barrel tuner would best allow a shooter to adjust according to conditions. Would this potentially be the case? Of course, that's assuming you knew where/how to adjust for various conditions.
 
Yeah, I always loaded at the match/range too. Gosh, I might have to look into a barrel tuner at some point. Seems to me, if someone had to pre-load (for whatever reason), a barrel tuner would best allow a shooter to adjust according to conditions. Would this potentially be the case? Of course, that's assuming you knew where/how to adjust for various conditions.

Read through this. Again, I took it from my Benchrest file that I created from replies to various threads posted here on Benchrest Central:

TUNE with TUNERS or POWDER by Gene Beggs

With all the talk of barrel harmonics, stopped muzzles, density altitude, water in the bore, this, that and everything else, it's enough to drive you crazy; isn't it? When the subject of tuners comes up, many just say, "Oh, to heck with it; it's all too complicated." If that's what you have been thinking, don't despair; it's not that hard.

BARREL HARMONICS

Sounds pretty impressive; doesn't it? But in my opinion the word harmonics does not accurately describe what happens to a rifle barrel when fired.

Webster defines the word harmonic as, "of or relating to musical harmony; pleasing to hear."

Rifle barrels are anything but pleasing to the ear, and they don't harmonize with anything. When fired, they whip up and down like an old cane fishing pole, mostly in the vertical plane and the muzzle comes to a complete stop at the top and bottom of the swing. It is at one or the other of these stops that our bullets should exit, as small variations in muzzle velocity result in the least dispersion. That's it; that's all there is to "tuning." You can time the bullet's exit with the powder charge, or you can vary the vibration frequency of the barrel by moving a weight fore and aft on the barrel, whichever you feel is most convenient. Me? I'll use a tuner. I have tried it both ways and with the tuners of today, adjustment is quick and easy. I never have to adjust the load; it's as easy as focusing a scope.

DENSITY ALTITUDE

This has caused a lot of confusion. Yes, a change in air density is the culprit that causes our rifles to go out of tune if we do nothing to compensate. You can monitor barometric pressure, relative humidity, temperature, dew point, wet bulb temperature, compute density altitude, etc., etc.; but do you know what the single most important thing is? Temperature!! Yes, changes in temperature have more affect on atmospheric density than all others combined. You can keep your rifle perfectly in tune throughout the day with nothing but an accurate thermometer and the simple formula that follows. Please remember that we are talking about short range benchrest group shooting with the typical 22 and 6mm cartridges in use today.

If you tune with the powder charge, decrease velocity 30 fps for each five degree increase in temperature and vice versa. With most powders, N133 being the most common, .3 grain equals 30 fps. With most Culver type measures, one full number equals .6 grains. For example, if your favorite load is 54 clicks, and your rifle is perfectly in tune for the first match of the day when temp is 60 degrees, you will decrease the load to 53.5 clicks when temp reaches 65 degrees, 53 clicks at 70 degrees and so on.

Me, I prefer to use a tuner. I never have to change the powder charge and I find it much easier to remove the bolt from my rifle, slide it back so I can reach the tuner easily and make a small adjustment with the two little three inch Tommy bars I carry around. Takes about fifteen seconds and I'm ready to go. No hassle, no pulling bullets and redoing a dozen cartridges, no cussing and fussing'. "But how much do you move the tuner, and which way?" you ask. Simple,

If the rifle is perfectly in tune, make a note of the temperature. Turn the tuner "IN" an *eighth of a turn for each five degree* increase in temp and vice versa. The tuner is marked with a single reference line. This line is placed at 12, 1:30, 3:00 4:30 etc. If the rifle dialed in for the first match of the day at 6:00 o'clock and temp was 60 degrees, move the tuner to the 4:30 position when temp reaches 65, 3:00 o'clock at 70 and so on. Understand? It's the simplest thing in the world but some try to complicate it. ... GB

It is a well known fact that the 30's stay in tune better than the 22's and 6's so you may not have to move your tuner much to keep the rifle in tune.

One good thing about behind-the-muzzle tuners is that installation is not critical. You can place the collars anywhere from flush with the muzzle to as much as two inches aft and they work exactly the same. Regardless of where you start, you will never be more than a half turn in either direction out of tune.

Let's say to begin with you lock the collars with the reference mark at 12:00 o'clock and the rifle shows a full amount of vertical on the sighter. This indicates that the bullets are exiting right out in the middle of the barrel's swing, halfway between a positive peak stop and a negative. You can get the rifle in tune by rotating the tuner a half turn in either direction. One way will tune the rifle to a positive peak, the other to a negative. It's the simplest thing in the world. Wish I had known all this stuff twenty years ago.

Some say it is better to tune the rifle to a positive peak rather than negative, but I cannot see any difference in group size.
 
I have several tuners, all of different designs that I have tried. One was used for a sanctioned match, and, over the course of that weekend, I was impressed with the improvement that it gave, over the same barrel BT (before tuner). Having said that (mostly to let you know that I have some personal experience with tuners), the most successful tuner user that I know of is Gene Buckys, and he uses his quite a bit differently than most. There is an article in the current issue of Precision Rifleman on this subject that you might want to take a look at. As always, there is more than one way to skin a cat. Just because two shooters take different approaches does not mean that one of them is wrong. I just wanted to point out that there are radical differences in how shooters use tuners.
 
Wow!

Thank you guys! And wow! I wish I had more time to play. For now, I just want my varmint guns (which are HV benchrest guns) to peform at peak in as many conditions as possible...so I think getting a barrel tuner will be the ticket in this regard!
 
OK, just thinking out loud here. I just can't everything to make sense to me. Maybe you guys can help.

A. Air density in the barrel is the dominant factor that causes our tune to change.
B. The 22s and 6s are about the same. 30 fps / 5 degrees F
C. The 30's stay in tune better.

OK, so in the 30 barrel there is more air. It seems to me like air density would have a larger effect than the 6s and the 6s would be more than the 22s, etc.

What am I missing?
 
Thank you guys! And wow! I wish I had more time to play. For now, I just want my varmint guns (which are HV benchrest guns) to peform at peak in as many conditions as possible...so I think getting a barrel tuner will be the ticket in this regard!



That's the spirit. Nothing ventured,nothing gained. The browning BOSS tuner design sure worked great on their varmint rifles and it came with setting instructions for a variety of factory loads.




Glenn
 
POI changes?

This doesn't really matter for the Benchrest "game" I know, but I'm wondering if a tuner would help maintain a consistent point of impact too? I would think it would, logically, but I don't know. In theory, temp changes would lead to velocity changes which lease to changes in bullet release within the barrel's harmonics, so adjusting the tuner (if done accurately) would return the bullet release point to the "sweet spot" again...typically at the top of the swing at least movement. So it would not only help shoot smaller groups, but also help maintain a consistent point of impact for score shooter or varmint blasters, Right?

Except the velocity would be different since the powder isn't being adjusted. But still, for pre-loading, I would have to think it would help POI as well as grouping.
 
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In my experience, with several tuners, tuner adjustments can, and usually do change point of impact. If the temperature requires a different tuner setting, and point of impact is critical, best go to the sighter.
 
A. Air density in the barrel is the dominant factor that causes our tune to change.

Greg,
The mass of the air in the barrel is NOT the reason for changes in tune with temperature. The change in air mass is miniscule. For instance, the difference in mass of the air inside a 0.308” barrel 22’ long with a change in temperature from 20C to 30C is about 0.016 grains. That is only a 0.014% difference compared to a 118 grain bullet, which is negligible.

Cheers,
Keith
 
This doesn't really matter for the Benchrest "game" I know, but I'm wondering if a tuner would help maintain a consistent point of impact too? I would think it would, logically, but I don't know. In theory, temp changes would lead to velocity changes which lease to changes in bullet release within the barrel's harmonics, so adjusting the tuner (if done accurately) would return the bullet release point to the "sweet spot" again...typically at the top of the swing at least movement. So it would not only help shoot smaller groups, but also help maintain a consistent point of impact for score shooter or varmint blasters, Right?

Yes. That's right.
 
Rereading, I see that I missed what you were asking. If you mean by consistent point of impact you mean that at a given setting, that has the rifle in tune, shots will group better, then yes, that is true. Sorry for getting it wrong the first time. On the other hand, adjusting the tuner may move the center of the group, relative to the point of aim, and if the position that is to bring the rifle into tune in one set of conditions, is different than that required by another, then the location of the group will likely not be the same. For this reason, I would never adjust a tuner in the middle of a record group without going to the sighter to both confirm that the adjustment had improved the tune of the system, and also to see where the adjustment had moved my point of impact to, so that I could hold off the correct amount. All in all, not a good idea.
 
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Here is what I have found

I have been using tuners on all my barrels for the past 4 years. I have 2 x Beggs, 2 x Shadetree, and 1 of my own design. This has been going quite well, including a Top 10 in the World Championships.

They all perform similarly, they work.

I now try to load at home, and I shoot the same cases, load and seating depth in all my barrels. I just adjust the tuner to get in dialled in.

I also shoot moly coated bullets, and I only clean every 3-4 groups, but that is another story.

I fire one shot between the bottom bulls to foul the barrel. Then I shoot 2 quick shots onto one of the bulls in similar flag conditions, but no need to be identical. If there is any vertical, I adjust the tuner, and move to another aiming point for another 2 shots until it is dialled in with no vertical. Then I wait for a condition I like and shoot the record. I keep the large sighter bull in case I need to go back to the sighter.

Yes, point of impact does change with tuner setting. Up to maybe 1" of vertical and maybe 3/8" of horizontal at 200 yds, so I would never consider changing tuner setting during a group.

I follow Gene Beggs advice about winding the tuner in as the day warms up. Makes it easier to at least know which way to move the thing.

Hope this is of interest.

Rob Carnell
Sydney, Australia
 
Keith,

My thought was the rate of the chemical reaction (the powder burning). Thoughts?

Greg J.


Greg,
The mass of the air in the barrel is NOT the reason for changes in tune with temperature. The change in air mass is miniscule. For instance, the difference in mass of the air inside a 0.308” barrel 22’ long with a change in temperature from 20C to 30C is about 0.016 grains. That is only a 0.014% difference compared to a 118 grain bullet, which is negligible.

Cheers,
Keith
 
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