Just Talked To Scott Hunter Concerning Scoring System

[mks]

Creedmore Vs. WipeOut

What you are really saying is that 2 guys both shoot 23x's who wins, the guy that got his x's first without a missed x, or vs. the guys who's x's were better x's and had one hanging out in the nine that scored a ten on the first target?

Interesting point. That could happen. The points could also be scored "worst edge" as a tie-breaker, just like the proposal for including wipe out X's. But doing both is likely beyond a reasonable amount of extra scoring.

Cheers,
Keith

 

[Greyfox]

Keith,
I just took my own advice and looked over quite a few scores from the last few years. As you pointed out there were quite a few matches where there were a significant # of 250 scores. Of course, those of us who shoot VFS know that a 250 is far from a perfect score.

FWIW- I tentatively agree that counting wipeouts might be a better way to score ties. I would probably want to llimit scoring wipeouts to the top three positions. Since I do a fair amount of scoring, I know a little about the time invloved, but if it is limited to the ties in top three, I think it would be manageable and would appear to have a more equitable outcome.

Rick

 

[pbike]

But why should target #1 count more than the others?

Because incase anyone has forgotten we are using Varmint (for score) rifles. You want a hit on that first shot don't you? The score game is about precision accuracy. The group game is about missing five shots perfectly. In group shooting the first shot doesn't matter, you just have to pile four more on it in the 8 ring.

Paul

 

[mks]

FWIW- I tentatively agree that counting wipeouts might be a better way to score ties. I would probably want to llimit scoring wipeouts to the top three positions. Since I do a fair amount of scoring, I know a little about the time invloved, but if it is limited to the ties in top three, I think it would be manageable and would appear to have a more equitable outcome.

Rick

Rick,
Delaying scoring any wipe outs until ties were identified would help, too. That way it would be a little extra time only at the end of the match.
Cheers,
Keith

 

[jackie schmidt]

As for difficulty in using the reticle, I have to use it quite a bit in determining the exact value on quite a few shots now at our Matches.

I must be missing something on the difficulty of scoring a wipeout on a score target. Last Sunday, just for fun, we took my 250 25x targets from The Louisianna State and used the reticle to determine the wipeouts. I simply placed the reticle on the bullet imprint as usual, and looked to see if the edge of the reticle did indeed "wipeout" the dot. It did not seem that difficult. Just like in scoring a line,it either does, or doesn't.

We determined 20 wipeouts. ..........jackie

 

[mks]

Because incase anyone has forgotten we are using Varmint (for score) rifles. You want a hit on that first shot don't you? The score game is about precision accuracy. The group game is about missing five shots perfectly. In group shooting the first shot doesn't matter, you just have to pile four more on it in the 8 ring.

Paul

Paul,
A lot of score shooters don't shoot the bulls in order. A miss on bull #1 may have been the shooter's fifth shot. That's part of why the Creedmoor system is so arbitrary.

Cheers,
Keith

 

[Dick Grosbier]

Paul,
A lot of score shooters don't shoot the bulls in order. A miss on bull #1 may have been the shooter's fifth shot. That's part of why the Creedmoor system is so arbitrary.

Cheers,
Keith

Keith,
Nothing arbitrary about it, the targets are numbered one to five, if the shooter chooses to shoot the bulls in reverse order (I myself do it this way) he knows exactly what he is doing and the chance he may be taking.

Dick

 

[jackie schmidt]

Granted, more work on scorers, match directors, target crews, etc should be avoided. But I do score targets, and I just do not see that big of a problem. The value of the majority of shots can be ascertained by just looking, only those that are questionable need the reticle.

And if you miss one, the shooter always has the option of putting up $5 to get a re-measure.

Heck guys, this is Benchrest. We shoot the most accurate Rifles on the Planet. Sometimes, whether it's group or score, the difference in places can be as small as .001 inch. If we are going to do this,do it right.

Just out of curiosity, how many 25x targets have been shot in IBS this year. The fact that not that many do it seems to be the cry of those that say nothing needs fixing.

As was said, this is just a proposal that Scott wants the Gulf Coast Region to submitt. I am sure other Regions will be inclined to submitt their own ideas..........jackie

 

[virg]

The suggested method looks good to me. As a matter of fact, this is the method I've been using for years....virg.

 

[matt_gu3]

Too much about nothing

I feel the need to give an opinion (yes it probably stinks like something else).
The current system works. Why fix it?
It is waaaaaay easier to stay in line with the rules the IBS is using, rather than pen a hole new set of rules. Simply for the fact that you want shooters across the country to be able to go to any score match and know what they are in for.
I just happen to be one of probably many match directors that holds both IBS and NBRSA sanctioned score matches at their clubs. I can see where this might get a little confusing for the scorers and the shooters. Please do us all a favor and leave it alone.

Wait, here's a better idea...............11 point system

 

[mks]

Keith,
Nothing arbitrary about it, the targets are numbered one to five, if the shooter chooses to shoot the bulls in reverse order (I myself do it this way) he knows exactly what he is doing and the chance he may be taking.

Dick

Dick,
How often has your strategy for ensuring better scores on the earlier bulls resulted in you beating other shooters by Creedmoor? I understand that one could try to guess when the wind will die down, or become steady, or for a cloud to cover the sun, and shoot the earlier bulls then, but honestly, how predictable are these things within a 10 minute relay? I am more than willing to learn something new, but it still seems like a roll of the dice to me at this point. I guess what I am asking is whether your strategy is a skill that can increase wins? Or is it as you say a chance that we take that contributes to the arbitrariness of Creedmoor?

Cheers,
Keith

 

[mwezell]

Just out of curiosity, how many 25x targets have been shot in IBS this year. The fact that not that many do it seems to be the cry of those that say nothing needs fixing.

After scanning through this years scores on the IBS website, it appears that a 250-25x has been shot twice this year...both by Mark Ludinsky.....up north, I might add

I didn't add all of the winning scores to be more precise but, it looks like the average winning x count is about 21-22 x's. Let's call it 21.5. That gives a 86% hit percentage for the winners. --Mike

 

[greg]

Jackie,
Interesting twist. In IBS score, which I shoot, I have often wondered why the IBS doesn't modify creedmore tie breaker a la the rules for NSSA skeet shoots which I used to shoot a lot of. Longest run from the front OR back wins. In other words, count the number of X's from the front(1st shot) to the first 10 no X and then do the same from number 25 backwards and count back the X's...longest run of X's wins.

Our Gulf Coast Region Director, Scott Hunter, has been garnering opinion from shooters concerning the scoring system that the NBRSA should adopt if indeed it does institute Varmint for Score as a permanent Registered Format.

The general consensus seems to be that the best approach would be to keep the same scoring system that is in place, with one change. That being, the tie breaker will be the number of "wipeouts" instead of the Creedmore as used now.

In other words, if two shooters tie with 23 X's, the winner will be determined by how many wipeouts each achieved.

This in no way changes the basic system, 21 X's with no wipeouts still beats 20 X's with 20 wipeouts. Only in the event of a tie will the wipeouts count. Of course, the point score still trumps everything, so that "sword of Damocles" of shooting a nine, or worse, is still hanging over every shooters head.

For what it is worth, there is little support for changing the rules for the Rifles. The best bet in getting this passed by the BOD is to keep the standard Heavy Varmint classification for Varmint for Score.You try to push a whole lot of changes in the equipment list, you are going to end up with nothing...........jackie

 

[SGJennings]

There are both pros and cons to a different approach from IBS. Someone quoted me the other day the saying about "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds". I replied that the issue, in practice, comes down to those with the battle scars telling the good from the foolish. So, I guess I'm saying that I'm happy to read an honest (mostly) debate on the issue.

I must say that I do not find the Creedmoor tiebreaker very satisfying. At first glance, I like the wipeout as I think of the score game as shooting for the center of the target.

OTOH, I am happy to shoot a healthy and growing format, so I wouldn't want to put extra burden on the under-appreciated scorers, nor on any clubs that shoot both IBS and NBRSA. That being the two issues that I see with wipeouts.

I would be interested in seeing what the cost and availability of the reticle for determining wipeouts would be. Would need to represent all common calibers, yes?

PS: While I'm thinking about it, sure would like to see more people thanking the range crews. A handshake, a smile and a thank you goes a long way. A nice, smooth Yuengling would go even further

Speaking of NSSA - I'd like to see some fun shoots put the top 3 shooters back out for a miss-and-out shoot off

Greg J. "GD&R and headed downstairs to FLR some cases"

 

[henrya]

As long as we're re-inventing the wheel, let's make this into a man's game.
One sighter, five record shots and that's all you can have on your target - six bullet holes.
And while we're at it let's allow 5 minutes to do your shooting.


"Creedmoor" has a long historical precedent. It was how it was done at the Creedmoor Range way back -- http://www.lrml.org/historical/creedmoor/1874.htm. We had a discussion about this some months ago if anyone wants to dig for it.

 

[Pete Wass]

I think I heard someone say the other day at a shoot that there were 2-250-25x shot last year and both by the same shooter. Down South

It's interesting to me at least that several years ago there was a year when a bunch of 25x es were shot then they tapered off. What does that say? I think our equipment has been progressing steadily yet there are a low number of 25x scores.

Considering that, I hardly think the Creedmore System is broken. Shooting a 250 score is only the entry level to having a chance to win, at 100 yds at least. Scoring 23 or 24 xes usually takes the Big Money, often 22 will do it where there are any kind of conditions at all . When we see the first 5 shooters scoring 25xes it will be obvious that something needs to be done.

 

[TedH]

Ted,
Just for giggles, how 'bout looking back through the IBS VFS match records and see how many times 25 out of 30 shot a 250. BTW- Where do you compete?
Yep, that's what I thought.....

Rick

So you thought that I competed in Central Texas with the CTBRS and ARC but also have at times competed with the guys in Denton, Houston, and Raton?
25th out of 30 is a number out of the hat. But it will happen one day if it hasn't happened yet.
I thoroughly believe that guys like the current scoring because they can go home at the end of the day and say they shot a perfect score even if they didn't win.
I can honestly say that I have shot a 250-12x at my home range and ended up last in VFS.

 

[mwezell]

So you thought that I competed in Central Texas with the CTBRS and ARC but also have at times competed with the guys in Denton, Houston, and Raton?
25th out of 30 is a number out of the hat. But it will happen one day if it hasn't happened yet.
I thoroughly believe that guys like the current scoring because they can go home at the end of the day and say they shot a perfect score even if they didn't win.
I can honestly say that I have shot a 250-12x at my home range and ended up last in VFS.

I can tell you that from my perspective, a 250 isn't anywhere near a perfect score and that I'd rather drop a point at 100 and stay clean at 200, where the grand agg is concerned, as most days you will have a limited number of shooters stay clean at 200 with several dropping more than 1 point, hence moving me up in the grand, That's a part of this discussion that really hasn't been addressed enough. In score, you can easily hold a two yardage agg in one day in it's current format. The Grand is what it's more about than anything to me. I don't think I've dropped a point at 100 since Oct. 2008. That doesn't mean squat though. There....I'll be jinxed now for even thinking about it.---Mike Ezell

 

[jackie schmidt]

Correctomundo, Mike

Just as in Group, Grand aggs, and Two Guns, are won and lost at 200 yards.

I am going to ask the shooters who attend our Tomball Club Matches if, for next year, they would like to shoot two of the five Club Matches at 200 yards. We can't shoot a Grand Agg at the Club Matches because the Club limits out time to the morning.

I think it would be good to have two of the Matches at 200. It is a different game........jackie

 

[crb]

River Bend shoots a complete 200/100 match every month. It's a dual edged sword. You are not done firing until 3:00 or later so it's a real endurance contest when it's 98 degrees in the shade [ or the high was 32 degrees ]. But, I have gotten used to thinking in Grand Agg terms so only shooting a single yardage would seem like half a match . I think regularly shooting a 200/100 match must totally change your perspective as opposed to shooting a single yardage.

We shoot 200 yds first which sometimes makes the 100 yd segment an anticlimax. If you have a big oops or just some bad luck and shoot a big 200 yd group then there is about no way to make it up in the 100 yd segment. But after having a 2" group at 200 you could at least look forward to possibly winning the 100 yd segment and having a little bragging rights even if you finish way back in the GA.