Just currious Thoughts on a new class "Nostalgia Benchrest"

[82boy]

I am just curious about something.
The big debate is that Benchrest need to attract new shooters. Many offer up a "factory" class as a solution. The problem is there is many different opinions what could be allow, or consider factory. A few match's have attempted to have a factory class that shot along with the sanctioned guns. The problem I see with factory class is with it not being sanctioned it doesn't have the same mystique, honor, or benefits that is accompanied with shooting a gun that follows sanctioned rules. The other thing I have seen is at the match's where they allow factory class this class is non existent. I have heard that the UBR has had a good response to Factory class, but I wonder if this isn't because this is a regional thing, or because the match's are newer. One example is the club match we shoot that was started by Fred Sinclair, use to have a large factory class, but as the shooters got older, they all got away from Factory guns. This was the same thing I heard at another well known club, that has club match's at.

Now with that all said, here is my idea. What if the sanctioning bodies would add a class and call it "nostalgia Benchrest ?" You may ask what would this be, and my thought is a class where match's are shot with guns that mimic the time before the custom actions came out. With this class I would propose going with the 13.5 lbs weight limit, as my understanding this was all they had back in the times of old. The action would have to be a commercially available action, like a Remington, Mauser, what ever. I would say that the chambering must be something that was available prior to the 6PPC such as the 222, Donaldson wasp, 6x47, etc. , or commercially available, like a 223, 22/250 etc. I would say that there would be a limit on scope power as back in the days high power scopes was not available. I say limit the power to 25. Now if the sanctioning bodies would accept this, and put it in a three gun program, it would generate interest. Now because of the rules if someone wanted to get involved in Benchrest, they could take there Savage or whatever varmint rifle, and compete, as long as it fits in the guidelines. This way the shooter would feel that they have a more competitive edge then shooting against the custom actions, chambered in exotic calibers. It would also make it easy to say what is acceptable, where in factory class the debate is if someone beds the action or what ever modification they do is factory, or having to have an expert around to tell if the gun is truly factory.

It is my thought that sporter is getting crazy, and they are attempting to change it to fit todays world, but it is not working. I would say replace the class with this Nostalgia class. So what do you think?

 

[jackie schmidt]

Sounds like a solution in search of a problem.

Or more of the "I want to win so create something I can win at"..

I don't mean to sound cynical, but many clubs have Club Match's through the year where there are relaxed rules that allow a shooter to shoot just about anything. The Club Matches we have at Tomball, for instance, have a Factory Class, Modified Class, and a Benchrest Class.

The Factory Class means that, no modifications aside from improving the bedding, and no Factory Target Rifles, such as the Savage F-Class or Remington 40x.

The Modified Class fits what you are talking about, mass produced Rifles that have been rebarreled, restocked, ect.

The Benchrest Class is brutally simple. "Any legal firearm".

But the competition is still tough, you have to be at the top of your game to win, as it should be......Jackie

 

[MRL]

I have a 50's vintage sleeved Mauser action and stock for it that was a guys BR rifle back in the day would this be about right?

 

[Boyd Allen]

All you need to do to your proposal is remove the words "sanctioning bodies". Look at your local shooters, come up with rules that fit the local conditions, and put on a match.For this sort of things, sanctioning bodies are not needed, and would get in the way of customizing matches to what appeals best to local shooters.

 

[moore]

Pat, I like your idea, all factory classes have there own set of problems with today's caliber offerings, UBR has in fact got a very good working factory class system but it comes at a price..Your idea would be a less expensive way of getting folks out I think.

As to your comment on UBR be a regional thing, The region is getting bigger, this years nationals proved that.

 

[82boy]

I have a 50's vintage sleeved Mauser action and stock for it that was a guys BR rifle back in the day would this be about right?

Yup.

 

[82boy]

All you need to do to your proposal is remove the words "sanctioning bodies". Look at your local shooters, come up with rules that fit the local conditions, and put on a match.For this sort of things, sanctioning bodies are not needed, and would get in the way of customizing matches to what appeals best to local shooters.

No, the sanctioning body is what is needed to promote this type of thing. We have local club match's that offer a factory Modified, and a factory class, and no one shoots in them. (There is no reward in doing so.) So when we do attract a new shooter there is no one for them to compete with, and they are forced to compete with all out Benchrest guns. (Very frustrating.) If the sanctioning body would support this, then other shooters who shoot Benchrest would be interesting in building/buying guns to compete. (Making a reward to shoot such a gun) This is turn would fuel the usage of these guns at local sanctioning events and get newer shooters involved.

 

[82boy]

Sounds like a solution in search of a problem.

Or more of the "I want to win so create something I can win at"..

I don't mean to sound cynical, but many clubs have Club Match's through the year where there are relaxed rules that allow a shooter to shoot just about anything. The Club Matches we have at Tomball, for instance, have a Factory Class, Modified Class, and a Benchrest Class.

The Factory Class means that, no modifications aside from improving the bedding, and no Factory Target Rifles, such as the Savage F-Class or Remington 40x.

The Modified Class fits what you are talking about, mass produced Rifles that have been rebarreled, restocked, ect.

The Benchrest Class is brutally simple. "Any legal firearm".

But the competition is still tough, you have to be at the top of your game to win, as it should be......Jackie

Jackie, It is more of promoting a class that would involve a lower cost rifle, and giving an incentive, or reward for other shooters to compete, in return opening the window for newer shooters to get involved at a lower cost. My question is how many shooters do you get in your club match's that shoot modified, or factory guns? In this area, all of the shooters have gone to custom action guns, and the two classes have dried up. We have no attendance for them. The main reason is there is no incentive for someone to shoot them. Now if we give an incentive we now open the door for lower cost shooting, but still hold to the best shooters around, and they can still preform at a top level.

 

[Greyfox]

Patrick,
What you suggest isn't a bad idea, but it would be near impossible to make it happen on a large scale. There are at least a couple of good reasons. First, neither large sanctioning body is going to go for something like this. It is a virtual impossibility to get anything changed in IBS due to the voting rules. NBRSA might be a little better, but you would certainly need a large block or a majority to be behind something like this. Also, to use the chamberings you speak of would require some expense acquiring reamers, dies etc. Then add to that the fact that most people want more magnification, not less. Hunter class is dwindling, not growing.

OTOH- UBR has been reasonably successful with some realistic Factory Class rules and it is working. Modified class is fairly closer to your suggestions, but without the old chamberings and scope limitations. One of the reasons that Modified Class was made was to encourage folks to take these old rifles out of the safe and compete again. Since most of them don't have the current bolt/port advantages they are a bit slower, but the current crop of bullets/barrels mean that a good action coupled with a sound stock and bedding can resurrect a fine shooter. If you want to take a minute to look at the current UBR records you will see that Modified Class is only a few total points behind the best of the Customs in quite a few yardages and Grand Aggs. The current Grand Agg record for the highest score shot in any class is held by a 40 year old sleeved XP in an ancient McMillan stock.

Why not implement your ideas at your local club and when it works, talk about it? Maybe you can make it grow.

Rick

 

[Charles E]

The problem is, as soon as any class gets a modicum of popularity, the money boys take it & run. I guess they've done what they can, but the UBR "Factory" class has rules that make a top-flight rifle more expensive than a "Modified" class rifle, Depending on a bit of luck getting a great barrel in a Modified, of course. For UBR Factory class, Coopers & Kimbers (& Grunig & Elmiger, if anyone wants) allowed.

Not much anyone can do about this. If you start banning some Factory rifles, where do you stop? And you can't stop someone buying 25 rifles, picking the best for themselves, and selling off the other 24. It's been done, esp. in the Silhouette game.

You can't prohibit rebarreling in your nostalgia class. Last person to make a serious run at IBS 1,000 yard Shooter of the Year bought and had chambered 25+ barrels. Perfectly within the rules, but at $200 a barrel to purchase & $150 to chamber (& likely it was more), that is $8,750.

Yes, they won, beating out Shannon Lowman, who only bought 15- 20 barrels, and as a gunsmith, chambered them himself. Shannon said he had three really good barrels out of the bunch. By the record book, he was leading for the first 30-40 matches, but by that point, his best barrels had lost their edge. By the 50th match he attended that year, he was behind.

* * *

Attracting people to benchrest rests with finding people who are interested in top accuracy. You hook them when they borrow your rifle & shoot the smallest group they've ever shot in their life. If that once is enough for them, you'll never land them, no matter how cheap it is. If once was not enough, you've already landed them.

On that note, the cheapest way to attract new shooters is to have a club rifle people can borrow and shoot at a match. We did that at Hawks Ridge; it is hard to say how many people we got with it, but it was more than two. They would come with their factory rifles, and we had a drawing to see who'd get to shoot the club rifle & compete with the big boys. It worked well.

 

[Greyfox]

The problem is, as soon as any class gets a modicum of popularity, the money boys take it & run. I guess they've done what they can, but the UBR "Factory" class has rules that make a top-flight rifle more expensive than a "Modified" class rifle, Depending on a bit of luck getting a great barrel in a Modified, of course. For UBR Factory class, Coopers & Kimbers (& Grunig & Elmiger, if anyone wants) allowed.

Not much anyone can do about this. If you start banning some Factory rifles, where do you stop? And you can't stop someone buying 25 rifles, picking the best for themselves, and selling off the other 24. It's been done, esp. in the Silhouette game.

You can't prohibit rebarreling in your nostalgia class. Last person to make a serious run at IBS 1,000 yard Shooter of the Year bought and had chambered 25+ barrels. Perfectly within the rules, but at $200 a barrel to purchase & $150 to chamber (& likely it was more), that is $8,750.

Yes, they won, beating out Shannon Lowman, who only bought 15- 20 barrels, and as a gunsmith, chambered them himself. Shannon said he had three really good barrels out of the bunch. By the record book, he was leading for the first 30-40 matches, but by that point, his best barrels had lost their edge. By the 50th match he attended that year, he was behind.

* * *

Attracting people to benchrest rests with finding people who are interested in top accuracy. You hook them when they borrow your rifle & shoot the smallest group they've ever shot in their life. If that once is enough for them, you'll never land them, no matter how cheap it is. If once was not enough, you've already landed them.

On that note, the cheapest way to attract new shooters is to have a club rifle people can borrow and shoot at a match. We did that at Hawks Ridge; it is hard to say how many people we got with it, but it was more than two. They would come with their factory rifles, and we had a drawing to see who'd get to shoot the club rifle & compete with the big boys. It worked well.

Charles,
Everything you said is, of course, true. But.....at this point in time UBR is simply not attractive enough to draw folks who have the wherewithal to spend the kind of money you are talking about. And, even if one did, there is no guarantee that having the most expensive rifle would win matches for you. There is more to this game than assembling a spendy rifle and going out and beating everybody. Granted, it will give one a better chance, but in the end, it's not everything.

When this happens, we can worry about correcting the problem. But right now, this simply isn't a problem. We're three years into this and matches are still being won by Savages and Remingtons in Factory class and old, worn out, sleeved stuff with new barrels in Modified and Unlimited Class. It really doesn't take a lot on money to win at this game unless you count powder, primers and bullets, but that's for another thread.

Rick

 

[82boy]

Patrick,
Modified class is fairly closer to your suggestions, but without the old chamberings and scope limitations. One of the reasons that Modified Class was made was to encourage folks to take these old rifles out of the safe and compete again.
Why not implement your ideas at your local club and when it works, talk about it? Maybe you can make it grow.
Rick

Rick the problem lies with getting this out on a broad scale. The main club match I shoot at has had a factory modified class for over 30+ years. Here is the problem it has been at least 15 years since anyone has shot in it. It is not just at our local club, I have gone to other match's in the local area where they also have a modified class, and they have not seen anyone shoot it in years. The thing is once you get someone hook into Benchrest they want to have a full out custom. Because of this Factory class is or has dies out in our region. The problem is due to the high start up cost very few are willing to take the plunge. So to put it in street terms there needs to be a "Gateway" to get newer shooters in . If and only if the sanctioning bodies would accept this gateway class, they would make an incentive for shooters to go down to this lower class. Now once you get shooters competing in this lower class, now newer shooter can come in and compete at a lower cost. Now the sanctioning bodies don't want to get involved in a factory class, due to the particulars assonated with it. The other problem is it is hard to make a factory class even, because the match director has no control over what the manufactures do.

On Calibers I am not saying that it has to be exotic, I would bet 90% would shoot the old 222. What I am saying is the caliber would have to be something that most commercial manufactures chamber in. At one time the 222 was popular, now its the 223. Anyhow you have Savage chambering in 6br, and Sako, Ruger chambering in 6 ppc. I would like to restrict these calibers out. All of them the reamers are readily available, and dies, etc. are easy to obtain. I through in the Donaldson wasp ,as it is a wildcat, but it would not have an advantage over the 222, and it is a nostalgia caliber, if someone wanted to go that route what would it hurt?

I am saying a nostalgia class because it takes away the term factory, which it seams that nobody wants to associate with. It would have the ability to be highly competitive, as I have seen a few of these old time guns that can hold their own against some of the best modern Benchrest guns around.

 

[Greyfox]

Rick the problem lies with getting this out on a broad scale. The main club match I shoot at has had a factory modified class for over 30+ years. Here is the problem it has been at least 15 years since anyone has shot in it. It is not just at our local club, I have gone to other match's in the local area where they also have a modified class, and they have not seen anyone shoot it in years. The thing is once you get someone hook into Benchrest they want to have a full out custom. Because of this Factory class is or has dies out in our region. The problem is due to the high start up cost very few are willing to take the plunge. So to put it in street terms there needs to be a "Gateway" to get newer shooters in . If and only if the sanctioning bodies would accept this gateway class, they would make an incentive for shooters to go down to this lower class. Now once you get shooters competing in this lower class, now newer shooter can come in and compete at a lower cost. Now the sanctioning bodies don't want to get involved in a factory class, due to the particulars assonated with it. The other problem is it is hard to make a factory class even, because the match director has no control over what the manufactures do.

On Calibers I am not saying that it has to be exotic, I would bet 90% would shoot the old 222. What I am saying is the caliber would have to be something that most commercial manufactures chamber in. At one time the 222 was popular, now its the 223. Anyhow you have Savage chambering in 6br, and Sako, Ruger chambering in 6 ppc. I would like to restrict these calibers out. All of them the reamers are readily available, and dies, etc. are easy to obtain. I through in the Donaldson wasp ,as it is a wildcat, but it would not have an advantage over the 222, and it is a nostalgia caliber, if someone wanted to go that route what would it hurt?

I am saying a nostalgia class because it takes away the term factory, which it seams that nobody wants to associate with. It would have the ability to be highly competitive, as I have seen a few of these old time guns that can hold their own against some of the best modern Benchrest guns around.

I hear everything you are saying, but none of that has happened here. When we started UBR matches here three years ago, I put out the word through several gun shops and through our club's newsletter just what we were going to do. When anyone contacted me for information, I explained everything. When they asked what they should bring to shoot, I told them to bring their most accurate rifle and we would have a class for them. This has worked exactly as we had hoped. We now have almost as many regular factory rifle shooters every match as custom guns. Since we started, we have only have one or two shooters decide they wanted to go the custom route. All the rest have been quite satisfied competing with other factory guns. We do have a couple of Sakos (including mine) and a couple of Coopers. But the current first place competitor in all of UBR shoots a Savage. Most of our factory shooters do not expect to win, but they are very happy to just come and shoot for a day.

You don't have to start a tidal wave across the country, you just have to get enough folks within driving distance for your club. You and I have corresponded about starting UBR matches at your club. I still think that is the answer, but you will have to decide for yourself. I will admit I get a little frustrated with people who keep saying it won't work when I have seen it work very well for three seasons and it's growing.

You will just have to decide to start somewhere and trying to get the IBS and NBRSA to get behind it at this time is a waste of time and unnecessary.

Rick

 

[jackie schmidt]

One other thing. In any type of competitive Benchrest Shooting, the initial cost of the Rifle is just a small part of what it takes to shoot.

I just sold a pretty good Benchrest Rifle, complete with scope rings, based on one of those Bruno Actions, for $700. I had no use for it anymore, and sold it to a shooter who did have a use for it.

I have been a Competitive shooter since the mid '90's, and have been running the Tomball Gun Club Benchrest Club Matches for 6 years. Based on my experience, this idea that the OP has suggested will not work within the format of the IBS or NBRSA.

 

[Hunter]

I just sold a pretty good Benchrest Rifle, complete with scope rings, based on one of those Bruno Actions, for $700. I had no use for it anymore, and sold it to a shooter who did have a use for it.

Jackie, the next time you decide you don't need a rifle anymore would you mind sending me a PM -- I may be able to scrape together $700.

 

[Bill Dorsey]

I know there were other custom action makers when I started shooting.....but the ones I remember

seeing the most were Shilen, Hart and Wichita.....lots of folks were shooting sleeved Remingtons.

I now own 4 of these "Nostalgia" Benchrest rifles.....with the exception of one.....all are custom actions.

2 round Shilen actions, an unlimited Hart and my sleeved Rem 722.

All 4 were built and used in competition registred matches since the early 60s.

I think that makes them "Nostalgic" enough.


When and if I ever return to competition shooting.....I'll at least shoot my sleeved Remington in Light Varmint.

 

[GerryM]

Thoughts on a new class of nastalgia benchrest

IBS may let you have a match like that .
You could ask but having a real permanent class is another thing entirely.
A club could hold such a match . WE had the Strange duck years ago anything except a PPC or BR We shot older type Benchrest cases.
Many had the old actions and sleeved Remingtons , Old Hart actions and 40x rifles. It was a fun match.

 

[dickw]

We've shot a factory class...

at our local matches for twenty some years. At any given match about 1/3 of our shooters use factory guns.

Over the years many of our shooters started with a factory rifle. Many have long since bought good bench guns and done very well. Some of the guys are content to stay in the factory class. A few years back we added a custom class for the factory guys who got a little carried away modifying their rifles. Rather than insisting that a factory gun be completely stock we encourage the shooters to try and improve the gun's performance. Many seem to forget that this is what benchrest shooting is about and why it started.

Most important... The winners in each class, bench gun, factory or custom get exactly the same prizes.

Rather than make up rules re: who shoots in which class, we believe a benevolent match director who makes decisions based only on what is the right thing to do is the best way to go... "O.K. Joe, since you had Dwight true up your action, bed it, put on a Kreiger barrel in 6 PPC and a Jewell trigger, we think you should shoot in custom class."

We let any factory gun shoot in factory as long as it is close to the way it came for the maker. We don't care if it is a big, fat and ugly Savage or an expensive Cooper, etc.

I understand the IBS considered a factory class but went a little crazy trying to figure out rules to govern same.

I'm sure many will sit at ther keyboard and pick nits with the above but consider... we have done this successfully for twenty-three years. Our small unsanctioned club matches have always had more competitors than any others in Michigan by quite a margin and continue to do so. I'm not counting the big, sanctioned NBRSA group matches held at Holton... that's an entirely different animal.

We've done it for a long time and it works. Can anyone else say that?

Dick Wright

 

[Bill Gammon]

We've done it for a long time and it works. Can anyone else say that?

Dick Wright[/QUOTE]

YES at our matches "UNREGISTERED" they get anywhere from 25 to 35 shooters. Now, granted we shoot the 11 point system, but those are the numbers. Don't misunderstand me Dick, I agree with you in getting the shooters out to a match. We have a Factory class, Custom class and Benchrest. Factory you are allowed any trigger as long as it has a working safety, bedding, but no glue ins, re-crowning, but barrel length no shorter then Factory by a 1/2". Any scope, but no more then I believe 1 1/2 lbs over the weight of the rifle. It works!! Sad fact we just had nationals and no Factory class showed up, although in the early years it was 10 Factory guns and 15 bench, now 25 bench. If you want to shoot you will!! if you want to win a trophy only, you will shoot as long as you win!!
Just my 2 cents.
Bill

 

[jackie schmidt]

We've done it for a long time and it works. Can anyone else say that?

Dick Wright

YES at our matches "UNREGISTERED" they get anywhere from 25 to 35 shooters. Now, granted we shoot the 11 point system, but those are the numbers. Don't misunderstand me Dick, I agree with you in getting the shooters out to a match. We have a Factory class, Custom class and Benchrest. Factory you are allowed any trigger as long as it has a working safety, bedding, but no glue ins, re-crowning, but barrel length no shorter then Factory by a 1/2". Any scope, but no more then I believe 1 1/2 lbs over the weight of the rifle. It works!! Sad fact we just had nationals and no Factory class showed up, although in the early years it was 10 Factory guns and 15 bench, now 25 bench. If you want to shoot you will!! if you want to win a trophy only, you will shoot as long as you win!!
Just my 2 cents.
Bill[/QUOTE]

Bill, that is real similar to what we do at Tomball, except I allow nothing other than bedding improvements on a Factory Class Rifle. I make no restrictions on scopes in any of the three classes, nor weight.
It's the same with the other two classes. I make the decision as to whether a Rifle is legal for a class. But it is really simple in the "Benchrest Class". I just say "Any Legal Fire Arm".