Jam in 30BR (and similar)

OK that sounds like fun. How about this?

Why does everyone like such fast powder in the 30 BR? Why would something like N-135 not work better? Has anyone tried the "new" IMR XBR powder in a 30 BR?
 
Same case, roughly same bullet weight but larger bore => a faster powder.

In the 6 BR, 135 works. Staying in the same powder family, in the 30 BR, 130 works.

There's a lot of hand waving there, though...

BTW, it finally quit snowing here. I was able to go to work for the first day this week.
 
amamnn

4198 is not "fast" for a 30BR using 112-118 grn bullets. In fact, some lots require what can be called a compressed charge. In general terms, shooting 4198 in a 30BR is like shooting 4831 in a 30-06.

From what I have seen with my XBR 8208, it is going to be too slow for the 30BR as it is being used in Varmint for Score. With N135, you could probably watch the bullets as they fly down range.


The way these things shoot with 4198, it is almost a waste of time to try anything else. But, that being said, we have about 16 pounds of Norma 200 that shoots darn near as well............jackie
 
What do you think about the burn rate and capacity of the 200 with respect to your 30 PPC and 30 BR, Jackie?

It's another of the powders that I was looking at as a backup to N120 in my 30 Major (which is kind of a 30-100 PPC except that the 100 is long, not short).

There was one of the AA powders that Mike mentioned as well, perhaps the one the gentleman mentioned earlier, but I can't pull it out of the fog this morning.

Greg J.

PS: by "backup", I mean if I can't get the 120 for some reason. My experience with it so far has been GREAT.
 
jackie schmidt said:
4198 is not "fast" for a 30BR using 112-118 grn bullets. In fact, some lots require what can be called a compressed charge. In general terms, shooting 4198 in a 30BR is like shooting 4831 in a 30-06.

From what I have seen with my XBR 8208, it is going to be too slow for the 30BR as it is being used in Varmint for Score. With N135, you could probably watch the bullets as they fly down range.


The way these things shoot with 4198, it is almost a waste of time to try anything else. But, that being said, we have about 16 pounds of Norma 200 that shoots darn near as well............jackie
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Jackie has this pretty well nailed down . . . still, I'm going to ramble a little: the H-4198 just flat out AGGS: group after group, day after day - no surprises. Early on, while other powders proved capable of consistently producing the smallest groups, those powders often, didn't hold up over the AGG - they seemed to invariably 'drop' a shot or two. In my experience, at MVs between 2950 qne 2975 FPS, H-4227 is "dynomite" - almost literally - you CAN, with room to spare, put too much of this number into the case!:eek: However, in the first three NBRSA registered group event which I shot, using H-4227, the Ronnie Long smithed, Morrison barrled rifle delivered 100 Yd. Aggs under 0.23" . . . then, in two score matches, it delivered TWO Grand AGG wins, and 999 out of 1K possible points and 64 Xes!:eek: Then, I switched to H-4198, because it provided the same precision, with LESS pressure, and a FULL case. Here's a link to Joe Entrekins great explanation of the early groping around with the 30 BR: http://www.6mmbr.com/30BR.html I began by working my way [up] through the burn-rate charts, using Win 680, which "looked like a perfect fit" . . . H-4227 was the first Number which consistently produced competitive groups/Aggs.

Many other powders proved useful for shooting decent groups/Aggs, among those I tried, H-322; BenchMark, RL-7 (edited to correct powder #) . . . but, somewhat dependant upon specific powder/Lot#, none delivered AGGS of the same predictable consistency as was/is delivered bu the H-4198 - no ugly, Agg wrecking "fliers". Some LOTs of N-130 have proven their worth. With H-4198, for about a decade, Lot-Lot variations have proven a non-issue.

The N-133 I had at the time (Lot 895-93 - yup, an 'early' and decent 133 Lot# - still got a little), which worked ok in a PPC, or, a 30x47 HBR proved useless via the 30BR capacity/expansion ratio: a heavily compressed charge wouldn't deliver 2900 FPS, and the soot looked more like black-powder . . . the N-135 never got opened . . . at least, H-322 and BenchMark are dense enough (suffecient energy), with the case completely FULL, to produce usable velocity (2900 FPS +) and very good Agging potential . . . but, compared to H-4198, one must be willing to sacrifice 100 FPS or, more, to the capacity/density/burn-rate/ratio gods . . . and, they rule!:eek::D I did shoot one NBRSA registered 100 Yd. group AGG using a HEAVILY compressed charge of H-322 and 125 Gr. FB bullets - it was about a .26something - not a wreck, but not a, "scared the winner senseless" deal either . . .

These facts aren't true because we want them to be, but, rather, because tournament results prove that they are.:D With the growing powder selection, it seems that so far, for this capacity and expansion ratio, nothing quite matches the consistent performance of H-4198. Savvy competitors are always looking for an edge - I found one, but you all can't have any!:p RG
 
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Randy

When we all switched to the 30BR last year, (from the 30PPC), the one hold out was Vic Smith. I gave him all of my brass, he has enough to do him for a while.

But his big discovery was the powder, ie, 4227. If you remember, we tried the originol Hodgdon, and it shot really well, good velocity at about 2950 with your 112. Then, Hodgdon switched over to IMR, which at that time had 'made in Canada" on the jug. It was at least 2 grns slower than the originol can of Hogdon.

Then we started getting IMR 4227 that was made in Australia. It was about the same burn rate as the originol Hodgdon, which was great, untill the temperature topped 90 degrees. You then had to work in "one tenth" increments, litterally.

So, Vic took an 8 pound jug of the Canadian and mixed it with a 8 pound jug of the Australian, and he now has a perfect powder for a true 30PPC, (not a Grendal). He has been shooting VERY well with this powder and your 112.

He says that when he uses it all up, (along with all of that brass), he will probably just get me to convert it to a 30BR.

By the way, Randy, almost everybody down here is shooting the full length BR case now, (1.550 chamber length), the one we make by blowing out the cases rather than necking them up. I was wondering if you ever tried it.......jackie
 
I'll probably eventually add a 30BR for my son's rifle just so I have one in the safe. Mine is staying the way it is so that I can swap between 10.5 and 13.5 without it kicking the snot out of me. Yeah, yeah, I know F=MA thing, but I'm talking about preceived recoil and I've got the gauge for that.
 
Jennings

In all honesty, I can hardly tell the difference between the recoil of a 30 BR at 3000 fps, and a 30PPC at 3000 fps. The only difference would be the PPC uses a faster powder, so the muzzle blast might be a little more tolerable.

Since the 30 Major is kinda in between, I would figure the same could be said.

I have a real nice shooting 30BR in a legal Sporter-LV at 10.5 pounds. Since I free recoil shoot, the recoil does get noticeable after a couple of targets......jackie
 
jackie schmidt said:
In all honesty, I can hardly tell the difference between the recoil of a 30 BR at 3000 fps, and a 30PPC at 3000 fps. The only difference would be the PPC uses a faster powder, so the muzzle blast might be a little more tolerable.

Since the 30 Major is kinda in between, I would figure the same could be said.

I have a real nice shooting 30BR in a legal Sporter-LV at 10.5 pounds. Since I free recoil shoot, the recoil does get noticeable after a couple of targets......jackie
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I think mine kicks less in 30 Major at 13.5 lbs than it did in 6PPC at 10 lbs. I shoot free recoil and, wearing (as I habitually do) a UT Vols sweatshirt, it seems like it never touches me. I know that it does, but it *seems* like it doesn't. That's after 50 shots. Maybe a different stock won't be as nice, but Cecil ain't *ever* gettin' it back. I'm ridin' this pony till they put me in the ground.
 
30ppc Recoil

I have been competing in VFS with a "true" 30ppc for the last year and a half. It weighs in at 13lb 7ozs. It sports a Kreiger H/V 17 twist barrel and I use Mr Robinett's BIB 112/7's and push them with a healthy dose of IMR-4227(2950 FPS).

This rig is a dream to shoot well balanced and behaves well in the bags. In reguards to recoil I can not tell the differance between my 6ppc and the 30ppc. This set up has fared well against the mighty 30 br. Its near the top of the leader board at every match. If you are going to venture into VFS make sure you start out with a 30cal 13.5lb rig.

I think the full potential of this set up will never be realized until someone with shooting talent get behind the wheel. :eek:
 
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jackie schmidt said:
When we all switched to the 30BR last year, (from the 30PPC), the one hold out was Vic Smith. I gave him all of my brass, he has enough to do him for a while.

But his big discovery was the powder, ie, 4227. If you remember, we tried the originol Hodgdon, and it shot really well, good velocity at about 2950 with your 112. Then, Hodgdon switched over to IMR, which at that time had 'made in Canada" on the jug. It was at least 2 grns slower than the originol can of Hogdon.

Then we started getting IMR 4227 that was made in Australia. It was about the same burn rate as the originol Hodgdon, which was great, untill the temperature topped 90 degrees. You then had to work in "one tenth" increments, litterally.

So, Vic took an 8 pound jug of the Canadian and mixed it with a 8 pound jug of the Australian, and he now has a perfect powder for a true 30PPC, (not a Grendal). He has been shooting VERY well with this powder and your 112.

He says that when he uses it all up, (along with all of that brass), he will probably just get me to convert it to a 30BR.

By the way, Randy, almost everybody down here is shooting the full length BR case now, (1.550 chamber length), the one we make by blowing out the cases rather than necking them up. I was wondering if you ever tried it.......jackie
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Not yet, Jackie - I've procrastinated at every opportunity . . I have an old 6BR barrel which would be a perfect donor . . . and I sure like the look of the fire-formed cases which you sent up.:eek: My latest barrel - a Bartlein 1:18", chambered and fitted by 'Humble Henry', to a Borden RimRock chrome-moly action, and pillar bedded into a Shehane laminated stock (I believe Bill calls the wood Rutland), is a sure-fire keeper - despite the short neck!:eek::D

Regrading the H-4227: I have used only the Austrailian (ADI) made version - in the 30BR, my Lot works quite well at 29.5 Gr., running the 118 Gr. bullets at a serendepitous 2950 FPS. Even during mid-summer (90 Deg. F) this particular Lot functioned perfectly - and sans excessive pressure. I cannot argue with PPC versions - especially when/if one owns a dedicated PPC bolt-face action . . . I agree, with the faster burn-rate powders, muzzle pressure should be reduced - that can't hurt!:eek: One, or, more of the new Alliant, 'Power Pro', powders may prove useful . . . Keep 'em ON the X! RG
 
R. G. Robinett said:
These facts aren't true because we want them to be, but, rather, because tournament results prove that they are.:D With the growing powder selection, it seems that so far, for this capacity and expansion ratio, nothing quite matches the consistent performance of H-4198.
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My experiences mirror R.G.'s in this respect. I've worked with many powders in the 30BR's, but nothing matches the day in/day out consistency of straight-from-the-jug H4198. The only thing that came close was my own blended brew (think H4212.5 ;)), but even that just equaled H4198 in terms of agg'ing.

One thing that's really nice about H4198 is how it 'cleans up' as you go up in charge weight. With the 1.00" 117-118's, over 33.5 the powder residue just takes on a greyish look to it and keeps 'cleaning up' as you progress to the 34.8-.35.0 range.....which is pretty much the upper limit for case filling using conventional means, anyway.

For those that like to shoot a bit 'lower down', you could make the case (pun intended) that the 30BR is a bit 'small' for H4198..or that H4198 is a bit 'slow'....depending on how you look at it. I've found that picking up the bullet weight to the 125gr. range (1.00" jacket) with charge weights in the 33.5-33.8 range gives the same powder characteristics as running the 1.00" long 117-118's around 34.5-35.0. And with the same 'on target' results with both group size and agg'ing.

The 30BR just might be fairly tuneable.......:D



R. G. Robinett said:
Savvy competitors are always looking for an edge - I found one, but you all can't have any!:p RG
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Randy, knowledge of your secret powder is safe with me. ;) In the Dominican recently, attempts were made to make me reveal it. Despite being tortured with adult beverages, forced to bake for hours in tropical sun and daily exposure to untold numbers of European style sunbathers, I didn't give it up.

nlc000541-v6.jpg


Good thing they didn't know about my "dawdling service" weakness.....:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVBjBClBSao
 

By the way, Randy, almost everybody down here is shooting the full length BR case now, (1.550 chamber length), the one we make by blowing out the cases rather than necking them up. I was wondering if you ever tried it.......jackie

Jackie,
Waiting on my first 30BR barrel. Am wondering how you get so much powder in a necked up BR case. Now I guess I know. Do you have and could you post a pic of the "blown out" reamer design. I would like to see if there is any difference in the one I have available. Thanks,

Donald
 
Donald

I have a batch of 4198 that seems to be just a tad slower than some of the other lots out there. Or at least, I think it is.

The last time I chronographed my HV, it was going about 3020 with 35.2 grns. It was pretty cold then, about 50 degrees.

Yesterday, I decided to shoot my 10.5 pound 30BR Sporter-LV, the first time I have shot it since last years Bluebonnet in April. I shot the exact same combo as I shoot in the HV, and it was going at about 3080. The temperature was about 68 degrees. The Rifle was shooting great, with no signs of any pressure at all.

As for my reamer, the only thing different from the standard Robinette is the trim to length. My trim to length is 1.540, the Robinette is (I think), 1.510.

The reason is the way we make cases. I took a 6mm barrel with a 6BR chamber in it, and simply ran a .330 chucking reamer in the neck portion. When you fire a full loaded 6BR in this chasmber, what comes out is a non neck turned 30BR, dead straight with a fully formed shoulder. The thing is, instead of getting shorter due to the necking up proccess that most shooters employ, it retains much of the originol 6BR cases length. So, I had a reamer ground to accomadate this. Dave Kiff has it on file........jackie
 
OK..Jackie...you have my couriosity going now...What is the point/advantage of having the 30BR brass with a length of 1.550"...If you are using a "zero" freebore in the chamber the bullet will not be positioned differently...unless one has some freebore...say...060"...to move the bullet foreward to make room for more powder...I fail to see any advantage...please enlighten us with your thinking...
 
Eww1350

I am not Jackie but I think I can provide a couple of thoughts why.

1st you do get a little more powder space if your case is .040-.050 longer as your bullet is out that much further given all else the same. I don't know if that is of consequence for Jackie though and hopefully he will get back on to give his reasons.

2nd and I suspect of more importance to Jackie is convenience and straightness of blownout cases compared to mechanically expanded cases. By blowing out first, the case is straight which provides for ease in turning necks, but in doing so the case doesn't lose any length. By having a chamber to accommodate the length, Jackie and others with longer chambers don't have to trim .060 in length for no particular reason.

I suspect the original Robinette reamer has a case length of 1.500-1.510 because after mechanically expanding the parent 6BR case which is 1.560 (I think), you ended up with a case that was only 1.520ish. Therefore 1.510 only needs minor length trimming. I hope this helps. Randy J.
 
That pretty well covers it.

All I can add is since the case retains much of the originol length, why trim it all off.

As far as accuracy is concerned, I doubt there is any difference between the way the way the case is made. It is simply a matter of convienience concerning the way you arrive at a "30BR" when starting with a 6BR case.........jackie
 
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