Jackie's 30BR Groups (Pictures)

Hal and Ken...I think what you are missing is that here in the Texas heat we can get the higher velocity with 33.5-34.0 grain loads...I have shot about 4,000 rounds thru my 2 30BRs and my chronograph and others here are all showing 3025+ fps out of 34 grains of H4196 with 118 grain bullets from a 24" barrel....
I have been shooting H322 with good sucess with 110-112 grain bullets and I have pushed them as high as 3275 fps from a 23" barrel during the summer months...Jackies number are right on the money from what I and other Texas shooters get regularly...there is no chronograph error...


Eddie in Texas
 
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Guys

Keep in mind. I have not Chronographed the 118's as of yet. The velocity I posted were with the 112's.

From what I have read, based on other shooters posting, the 118 will probably be at about the same velocity.

I have shot these Rifles over a friends 35P, and I see no error in my unit.

As I said before, I have tried going up on the velocity, with questionable results. It acts just like a 6PPC when you get it too hot. It will shoot small groups, but pop enough shots to kill the agg, or produce a nine.........jackie
 
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This past weekend I chronographed my 18 T Hart bbl and a 17 T Lilja. Both barrels are HV and 24". With 07 4198 my Hart averaged 3044 with 35.2 and the lilja was 3055 I loaded 36gr in the lilja and it only went to 3068 for 10 shots. The thing about the old powder was it was heavier and you could get 37gr in the case. that useto be around 3150. This is all with a 118 10 ojive bullet.
this is with a 35p also.It was 76degrees with +- 60 percent humidity.
Ken
 
eww1350 said:
Hal and Ken...I think what you are missing is that here in the Texas heat we can get the higher velocity with 33.5-34.0 grain loads...I have shot about 4,000 rounds thru my 2 30BRs and my chronograph and others here are all showing 3025+ fps out of 34 grains of H4196 with 118 grain bullets from a 24" barrel....
I have been shoot H322 with good sucess with 110-112 grain bullets and I have pushed them as high as 3275 fps from a 23" barrel during the summer months...Jackies number are right on the money from what I and other Texas shooters get regularly...there is no chronograph error...


Eddie in Texas
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I was kidding about the "broke" chronograph thing, but these numbers you guys are quoting do seem almost unreal. I'm not saying they are unreal, just seems that way. Anyhow, I've been testing in hot and cold weather for three years now with the 30BR. And the beauty of the cartridge is the utter stability of the loads in a wide variety of temps. The velocities I get when its in the 40's is damn close to the same as it is when it's in the 90's.
 
Hal

When I built my 30BR, it was in the Spring, temperatures were still in the 70's.

When it hit 90+, the loads that shot so well started openning up. It took dropping the load about .4 to get it back.

Right now, we are stuck with shooting in 100 degree temperature, heck, it hits 90 by 10AM. It will stay that way through August. Perhaps some other parts of the Country do not see the huge shifts in temperatures we do.

I tune the Rifle to where it shoots the tightest groups. I think 3000 fps is pretty good velocity wise,. Ed Bernabeo has a Rifle that is just about identicle to mine, same reamer, same barrel, a different lot of 4198. It shoots exactly the same load and velocity. Quite well, I might add......jackie
 
Interesting info Hal...There are 3 of us here at our local club that shoot 30BRs and when we hold our monthly money shoot, it is not uncommon for one of the guys to set up his chronograph out in front of his bench and shoot the entire 100-200 yard event collecting data and sharing the results of accuracy versus velocity...we try to stay on the 2950-2975 node...I have found that my H322 looses velocity during cool damp weather and gains velocity during very hot dry conditions...Now here is the real surprise to me...I cannot get 35+ grains of H4198 in my case without slow, slow dribbling it in with a funnel and 4 inch tube...it will fill up within 1/8" of the case mouth and resist seating my bullet (compressed load)...I am shooting 7 ogive bullets on an .925" jacket...I use an electronic PM and validate it with a balance beam scale in a stable environment...just can't put as much H4198 in a case that the shooters of the east put in theirs...
It would be a real eye-opener for you if you had an opportunity to load and shoot in Texas during the summer months...
 
eww1350 said:
Interesting info Hal...There are 3 of us here at our local club that shoot 30BRs and when we hold our monthly money shoot, it is not uncommon for one of the guys to set up his chronograph out in front of his bench and shoot the entire 100-200 yard event collecting data and sharing the results of accuracy versus velocity...we try to stay on the 2950-2975 node...I have found that my H322 looses velocity during cool damp weather and gains velocity during very hot dry conditions...Now here is the real surprise to me...I cannot get 35+ grains of H4198 in my case without slow, slow dribbling it in with a funnel and 4 inch tube...it will fill up within 1/8" of the case mouth and resist seating my bullet (compressed load)...I am shooting 7 ogive bullets on an .925" jacket...I use an electronic PM and validate it with a balance beam scale in a stable environment...just can't put as much H4198 in a case that the shooters of the east put in theirs...
It would be a real eye-opener for you if you had an opportunity to load and shoot in Texas during the summer months...
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Ya just need a longer drop tube man.;) I've seen Allie Euber drop over 38grs of 4198 into a standard 30BR case, well, almost all of it went in anyway.:rolleyes: I use a Chargemaster and then drop through a 10" tube. 35grs is indeed a compressed load, so a tight bushing is needed to keep the bullet there. I can get up to 37 grs in with a touch of room to spare...
 
I'm probably not qualified

to opine here but will anyway. I have been fooling with 30's since 1999. During that time I have had a number of different chamberings including the 30 BR. I currently have 2 of them and another about to come out of the shop. For years I drove them for all I could get out of them figuring the speed would help get through some light conditions. Over the winter I decided to back up and try the slow lane. Let's face it, we can't shoot through conditions.

I have two new barrels on my two 30-44's. I recently had tuners installed to both of them. I tried running them WAAAY up there with less than satisfactory results. I then decided to look for 2980 or so and guess what< one of them went into a hole with a 1/4th turn of the tuner. The other remained a problem. Didn't realy like 4198 nor RL-7. Can't get enough 322 into them to make any accuracy so abandoned that and I refuse to use even the Viht powder I have on hand. Recently some friends found the source of an obscure powder that is in the right burn rate for this case and the 30 BR so I begged some and magic happened. Once I found 2980 and took the tuner off the barrel, the TINY hole that we all covet. It does not like the tuner. When it came off they went into a hole.

I found the same sort of thing to be true with my 30-284. It shot the standard powders OK but was not a world beater. I had some 4197 Scott at the time so gave it a go and guess what, that rifle turned into a tack driver that stays in tune all the time. Fortunately a friend sold me a bit more so I am good for a while longer. I am having a new barrel chambered for it and am willing to bet it will prefer something other than the 4197 S.

The point I am trying to make is to look for alternatives and sometimes one finds them where they least expect to. Apparently some barrels are very fussy as to what they like and one's favorite powder may not be it! Be adventurous, Ya never know where you might find GOLD. Most barrels will shoot the "Standard stuff" the very best but some of them just don't like it and may like Rice Crispies instead. Give them what they like, not what you like would be my advice from what I have seen lately.

Something I find frustrating is the lack of an accurate powder burn rate chart. I have yet to see one that has powders listed where I know their burn rates to be. What's up with that?
 
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jackie schmidt said:
When I built my 30BR, it was in the Spring, temperatures were still in the 70's.

When it hit 90+, the loads that shot so well started openning up. It took dropping the load about .4 to get it back.

Right now, we are stuck with shooting in 100 degree temperature, heck, it hits 90 by 10AM. It will stay that way through August. Perhaps some other parts of the Country do not see the huge shifts in temperatures we do.

I tune the Rifle to where it shoots the tightest groups. I think 3000 fps is pretty good velocity wise,. Ed Bernabeo has a Rifle that is just about identicle to mine, same reamer, same barrel, a different lot of 4198. It shoots exactly the same load and velocity. Quite well, I might add......jackie
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We haven't had any heat like that here for a long time, thankfully. It is indeed interesting to hear that your groups open up that much with not so much of a temp swing(70's to 90's). I have a copuple barrels that I haven't changed the load on in a year and a half. The tuner gets moved around a little, but not the charge. My latest two barrels need a little more attention, but still shoot great without too much hassle.
 
I wonder

Hal D. said:
We haven't had any heat like that here for a long time, thankfully. It is indeed interesting to hear that your groups open up that much with not so much of a temp swing(70's to 90's). I have a copuple barrels that I haven't changed the load on in a year and a half. The tuner gets moved around a little, but not the charge. My latest two barrels need a little more attention, but still shoot great without too much hassle.
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if there is a big difference in their air density from 70 or 80 to 100 deg?
 
The bullets bearing surface length also plays a role. For example, the BIB 118-7's (1.00 jacket) are around .405 for an average while my 117/118's with a tangent 8 ogive run .375 for length.

In back-to-back testing, the BIB 118-7's have always shown a bit more velocity than my 117/118-8's with the identical powder weight. This seems a bit backwards from how it should be...less bearing surface = less frictional loss = more velocity, right? Maybe not. ;)

What I believe is happening: with a powder like 4198 in the 30BR case....where you can't physically get enough of it in the case to get a severe overpressure situation....the longer bearing surface changes the pressure curve enough to actually give higher velocities than a shorter bearing surface length bullet of the same weight with the same powder charge.

My bullets like an average of .8 gr. more powder to get the last bit of vertical out than the BIB 118-7's.
34.0/4198 with the BIB 118-7's shoots dots @ 3020 and 34.8/4198 with mine shoots dots @ 3020. The same .8 gr. spread happens down low. 32.7/4198 with the BIB 118-7 shoots dots and 33.5/4198 with mine shoots dots.

When you add in their pressure ring plumpitude, the BIB 118-7's and 118-10's are quite simply a 30BR tuners dream.:)

Just my theory on it. And like Tim Wilson sings: "But I could be wrong." :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRzJfdG_5w8
 
Air density

is something I was curious about a while back. In particular I wondered how it varied both with changes in temperature and relative humidity. I ran a few calculations to see what the effect(s) is/are. Attached is a spreadsheet that shows the numbers for the Houston, TX area.

I'm not sure it told me anything useful or anything that helps me shoot better groups/scores. But, anyway here're the numbers. :)

Glen
 

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  • Air Density Calculation - Houston.xls
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Al

I have a similiar experience when shooting the 112 BIB as compared to the 112 Cheeks. Set up is within a few thousanths of each other to achieve the same marks.

Visually, the two bullets are identicle. The only difference you can acsertain is when you measure them. The BIB will typically have a .3087 base diameter, the cheeks a .3083. Just forward of the base, the BIB will measure about .3083, while the cheeks hits dead on at .308.

In order to get the exact velocity, and the same agging capability, I have to shoot the Cheeks at 34.4 grns of my 4198. That is a pretty big jump from the 33.7 load that the BIB likes.

Just that little added diameter probably causes the pressure spike to occur a little sooner with the BIB, especially with the 4198. The tighter bullet simply builds pressure quicker.

Or, at least, that is my theory. We found the same thing when testing various 6mm match bullets. We could take twobullets of the same weight, and fins as much as 80 fps difference in the velocity oner the same charge. The biggest extreme was shooting a Bruno 00 Boat Tail over 30.4 grns of 133. That would typically give 3420 fps out of a 21 1/2 inch barrel. Place a Fowler, or other similiar long shank design bullet over the same charge, and it will darned near top 3500.

It has always made me wonder why loading manuals do not differentiate between bullet designs when publishing load data. As can be seen,it makes a big difference.

But then, when we were messing around with the IMR 4427 in the 30PPC, we found that there was as much as TWO GRNS DIFFERENCE in the cans stamped made in Canada, and the ones stamped made in Austrailia. If someone is working in theupper load window, that could get them in trouble quick.........jackie
 
Jackie: when I was tinkering with H4227 Hodgden in my 30BR, the velocity situation with the BIB 118-7 and 118-10's was exactly reversed from what I've seen with H4198. The 118-10's gave more velocity than the 118-7's with the same charge. They also gave a bit more wiggle room before the pressure started getting snotty. With the 118-7's, it got up there right now. ;) I'll omit the exact charge weights I used, but at a certain weight it would shoot a mid .2 with all vertical, .3 gr. more would hammer 'em into a little dot about .080-.100, and .3 gr. more would thrash the cases. The .080-.100 groups would happen about 3,200. There was nothing down low that I could make work no matter what the jam, jump or neck tension.

When I blended H4227 with H4198, the blend (H4212.5? :D) took on all the characteristics of H4198..no matter what the ratio of the blend. -Al
 
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Hokey su'MOKE Bullwinkle....... 3200 from a BR case is smouldering right down t'road eh.....

I only shoot 3250 with the 30X47L. 'Course I ain't played wit' powders yet.

:cool:

al
 
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