Indoor Postal 100 Meter Match Unlimited Air Rifles - South Africa vs The Netherlands

cris said:
Since this thread may have an audience of international shooters, allow me to provide a different opinion from the last poster.

Many "experienced airgun bench shooters" in the USA have also shot benchrest with rimfire and centerfire rifles, therefore, they are quite aware that most ranges/clubs can allow shooting out to 100 yard/meters and beyond, if required.

These same shooters have no fear of "the thought of submitting the coffee-cup sized groups", competition is what motivates them. The USA has established Open and Unlimited air rifle classes and shooting at 50 yards. If our shooters accept these new items, longer range distances will be reviewed. Rest assured, that USA benchrest shooting of all types has always been on the cutting edge and will continue to be.

Shooting indoors is certainly different than shooting outdoors, however, 100 yards/meters indoors will always be a challenging distance for existing air rifle designs. Not to mention, that many structures that will allow for 100 yard/meter shooting often have a unique set of conditions to contend with.
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cris, I agree 100% with your sentiment here. Same is true also for South Africa. We are known for our shooting sports etc. just like you guys in the US.

My only resistance to having an 100m outdoor match at different venues (even if inside the same country) is that the conditions play such a big part to the results that it becomes almost impossible to have a competition.

The indoor venue is there to level this out. The competition we had with the NL/Be guys also demonstrate this very nicely.
 
Wannebe,

Excellent point. Shooting outdoors at 25m using the international target is not only challenging but recognized by the sanctioning organizations and the world community.

We are proud of our association with WRABF and pleased to have the opportunity to shoot a postal match with South Africa.

At this point, we have 3 venues on both coasts of our country with 3 teams of 3 shooters ready to submit scores to this international event. Their matches will be shot on or about November 12.

Air rifle benchrest is no longer a "backwater sport", it has arrived on the international scene.
 
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Cris, we also have 3 x 3 shooter teams for the 19 November. I'll name the indivduals on this site when we confirmed who is in the A-team, B-team & C-team well before the shoot.
 
Wannebe said:
cris, I agree 100% with your sentiment here. Same is true also for South Africa. We are known for our shooting sports etc. just like you guys in the US.

My only resistance to having an 100m outdoor match at different venues (even if inside the same country) is that the conditions play such a big part to the results that it becomes almost impossible to have a competition.

The indoor venue is there to level this out. The competition we had with the NL/Be guys also demonstrate this very nicely.
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"

I totally DIS agree! Its really the variety of conditions we experience outdoors that BRINGS OUT the skills of accurate shooting! It for this reason that most serious bench shooting with firearms is at 200< and beyond! Sure, one can't compare exact scores with OTHER outdoor matches, but its legitimate to compare the relative positionings of the competitors themselves. No, indoor shooting is good to help tune equipment and many technigues, and its great for camraderie, but with respect to competition, its the outdoor shooting that brings out the skills.
 
For any of the international shooters that may be following this exchange, allow me to give another opinion.

Most "experienced airgun bench shooters" in the USA recognize that benchrest is a very specialized game with equally specialized equipment. For example, those shooters would not shoot rimfire rifles outdoors at 600m targets, nor do they use 6PPC rifles outdoors at 1,000 yards. Those shooters understand why attempting such feats has little relevance to their game and therefore, is of little interest.

Now, there will always be a fringe element that finds doing things that are not recognized or sanctioned interesting and enjoyable. These types relish the notion of "submitting the coffee-cup sized groups" and worse. They, then, always have an excuse when their performance is what the rest of us knew was inevitable.

Nevertheless, this is their right. Most of us fail to see the point of trick shots and other shooting that relies on the luck of the conditions at that moment in time rather than skill or equipment.

If you have a facility that can accommodate 100m shooting, shoot your air rifles there. Shooting outdoors at that distance with current air rifle designs and pellets will seldom produce benchrest accuracy.
 
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therealld said:
"

I totally DIS agree! Its really the variety of conditions we experience outdoors that BRINGS OUT the skills of accurate shooting! It for this reason that most serious bench shooting with firearms is at 200< and beyond! Sure, one can't compare exact scores with OTHER outdoor matches, but its legitimate to compare the relative positionings of the competitors themselves. No, indoor shooting is good to help tune equipment and many technigues, and its great for camraderie, but with respect to competition, its the outdoor shooting that brings out the skills.
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I also agree with your statement here that outdoors bring out the skill. But that is not what we are talking about.

We are talking about having a competition on a given day to compare skills. That is why we all have competitions. Any competition can and will only be "fair" if all participants are placed on an even footing to start off with regarding the external factors that could influence the outcome, especialy at the distances we talk about here.

25m Bench Shooting just make it all that more "easier" to get away with the environmental influences as the impact is far less. No, it is not easy at 25 I know, but given the same conditions it is exponentialy more difficult at 100m.

I live on a small holding and go to the farm often. I have shot many 10 x shot outside groups of less than 35mm. Does it mean anything ? No, because on those days I might as well have shot indoors. I have also shot many (read more) 150mm outdoor groups due to not reading the wind etc correctly.

How do you want to have a competition when the conditions can influence the outcome by that much ?
 
cris said:
For any of the international shooters that may be following this exchange, allow me to give another opinion.

Most "experienced airgun bench shooters" in the USA recognize that benchrest is a very specialized game with equally specialized equipment. For example, those shooters would not shoot rimfire rifles outdoors at 600m targets, nor do they use 6PPC rifles outdoors at 1,000 yards. Those shooters understand why attempting such feats has little relevance to their game and therefore, is of little interest.

Now, there will always be a fringe element that finds doing things that are not recognized or sanctioned interesting and enjoyable. These types relish the notion of "submitting the coffee-cup sized groups" and worse. They, then, always have an excuse when their performance is what the rest of us knew was inevitable.

Nevertheless, this is their right. Most of us fail to see the point of trick shots and other shooting that relies on the luck of the conditions at that moment in time rather than skill or equipment.

If you have a facility that can accommodate 100m shooting, shoot your air rifles there. Shooting outdoors at that distance with current air rifle designs and pellets will seldom produce benchrest accuracy.
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Correct cris.

I (and most others) do not mind posting plate size groups when you post a 30mm one, but the point is that then I would expect to be sitting on the bench next to you. If not, it was a waste of time and we have nothing interesting to talk about over a beer afterwards.
 
Wannebe,

Maybe someday, we can all have a 100m shooting facility. For now, we are striving to find better barrels and more consistent pellets. Competition with others is why we do this and the mutual respect that comes from that experience.

We are excited about this opportunity with South Africa. We are also looking forward to a postal match with Australia and, hopefully, other countries leading up to the 2012 World Postal Championships.

Some disrespect postal matches, showing a preference for shooting "shoulder to shoulder". This, too, is their right. However, the world is a big place and postal matches can help make it feel smaller and develop the camaraderie that most shooters enjoy as much as the competition. Let us keep shooting.
 
Ammion,

Team USA shooters:

Team 1, from the Northwest, Ron Silveira, Mike Hopkins, Wayne Burns
Team 2, from the Northeast, Dan Brown, Daniel Finney, TBD
Team 3, from Cailfornia, to be named shortly
 
Yes, I LOVE competitions where some shots blow out of the rings! Because I only shoot in shoulder to shoulder competition, and care not a whit for postal shoots! A couple days ago 44 of us shot outdoors at 77 yards at a bull perhaps 4" across with a half inch ten and around 3/16" of so X ring. Few of us kept every shot in the black, what with the wind shifts an all, but it was true benchrest competition nonetheless! I realize prolly none of the readers here were there, nor are they likely to ever go to shoot insuch an event, so they can't relate much, but I enjoyed it immensely, and will make the drive to one again whenever it's held.

I guess I feel that encouraging one or two guys to "compete" in regular postal matches as a way to participate in competition is ok ... but it MAY be an impediment to encouraging folks to get together in larger on-site matches, because its so easy.
 
To the international shooters, there was a state championship match last Saturday. The organizers were successful in having an excellent turnout and convinced several sponsors to donate prizes. The organizers should be congratulated for their efforts and all shooters should celebrate the attention that has come our way.

This match proves that air rifle benchrest is not the "backwater" sport that our last poster proclaimed it to be.

Nevertheless, most of us disagree with his opinion that postal matches are an "impediment" to anything associated with benchrest. The USA is fortunate to have shooters with the wherewithal to travel long distances and the desire to shoot "shoulder to shoulder" at competitions. This same poster has chastised us for making benchrest appear to be an "elitist" sport but now wants us to believe that spending hundreds of dollars on fuel, lodging and food are somehow better than an international postal match.

The USA is a large country with pockets of shooters spread far and wide. These shooters struggle with finding other shooters to shoot with and venues to shoot at.

The USA is also like the rest of the world where many shooters do not have the ability to finance long trips to distant competitions for themselves, not to mention their children.

Postal matches fill this need. Shooters have an opportunity to compete, juniors can be encouraged and nurtured and the camaraderie that is so important continues. This is true if the postal match is between states or between countries.

The South Africa/USA postal match will be a great beginning that we can build on for the future.
 
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Wannebe

I would say the chances of THAT happening is very remote, since from what I hear, Chris doesn't shoot in many, if any, shoulder to shoulder Airgun Benchrest matches where others are competing alongside in the same class as him, esp outdoors. I say this because I am unaware of any he has fired since he sprang full-blown onto the airgun scenes a couple yrs ago, and because he has told me he never plugs targets personally, but rather, mails them to others to score.

re:

"Correct cris.

I (and most others) do not mind posting plate size groups when you post a 30mm one, but the point is that then I would expect to be sitting on the bench next to you. If not, it was a waste of time and we have nothing interesting to talk about over a beer afterwards."
 
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To our international shooters, the last poster is "a bit old, and short of good detail memory for names and numbers", so must be forgiven.

Many shooters in the USA help younger shooters along while they are learning. These younger shooters are inexperienced in the scoring and plugging of targets. It is unacceptable that the experienced shooter then score his own target, therefore, his targets must be sent out for another experienced shooter to score. This happened to be the situation during the 2010 World Postal. A dear friend, Larry Burchfield, agreed to this generous favor, a man that epitomizes sportsmanship. Most shooters in the USA are willing to help others and the sport rather than simply being "its all about US!".

While shooting "shoulder to shoulder" is a wonderful type of competition, postal competitions are another that can be just as fulfilling and rewarding.
 
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Speaking of sort on memory, the ONE match y ou claim to have competed in? I can't find your name in the results?

Now, when I post here, I normally simply give my own opinion, usually based on my personal experiences ... and so I wonder HOW it is you are able to speak for "most of the benchrest shooters" across the country? I'm calling you out ... HOW MANY different ranges have you personally competed in airgun benchrest matches alongside several other airgun shooters in your vast exposure, allowing you to be able to put a finger to the pulse of American Airgun Benchrest shooters?

If you weasel on this, please refrain from further "hitching a ride" on the ends of anymore of my posts, as its getting old.

You did a really good thing for American airgunners by stepping up and helping to get the shooting teams qualified for the Sc World's match, but don't wreck that by exposing feet of clay.
 
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therealld,

"I'm calling you out ...". This is a new attack, even for you. By the way, your link directs viewers to the results of a rimfire match.

How many ranges a shooter has shot at has no bearing on one's understanding of sportsmanship.

Shooting along side other shooters does not give one mutual respect for their fellow shooters.

The pulse of air rifle benchrest in the USA is not new, however, it is riding a wave of popularity and my dealings with so many of these same shooters has provided a unique insight.

As far as "hitching a ride" on your posts, everyone has the right to post an opinion, even one that disagrees with yours.

"You did a really good thing for American airgunners by stepping up and helping to get the shooting teams qualified for the Sc World's match". Thank you for the compliment but a pat on the back is not necessary. I did not do this alone, there was a great deal of invaluable and generous help from many shooters all across our country.
 
Yes, you are right about that faulty URL, I typed 2010 World Championship Airgun Benchrest Results, but apparently, thats a pretty arcane search request, and I was lead to a Rimfire result. My bad ... BUT still, I can find NO mention of you in any airgun Match results either ... were you using yet ANOTHER name?

Calling you out isn't an attack, its a challenge, one I would assume any individual with your VAST experience would welcome. I know you have repeatedly inferred i have little to no knowledge of airgun benchrest, and thus you feel bound to challenge my experience and opinions at near every post I make, so perhaps many of us would be interested in the facts about YOUR (personal) benchrest experience that gives you the ability and impetus to speak for the benchresters at large?
 
A little front porch museing.................I have a friend that is a former international champion that has so many trophys filling his gun room his wife left him. He has more time building bench guns and time on a bench in serious competition than most people have in bed. However he now shoots air rifle but has no one to shoot with as nobody in his immediate area has one................using the former post logic this shooter with 50 years of benchrest experience who now cannot shoot "Shoulder to shoulder" so to quote is not a recognized benchrest shooter ?.............spare me.

Shooting postals allows not only my shooter a chance to stay active but a bunch of shooters to participate that cannot travel or shoot local matches. Postals has just as much logic as shooting at twice the size spots at 77 yards in the wind or 100 yd.matches.
 
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therealld,

You are intent on provoking things and my attempting to stay above the fray does not seem to be working.

"were you using yet ANOTHER name?". You have some issue with this but you use 3 different screen names on 3 different forums, so I do not understand. By now, everyone knows what screen name matches with which actual person, so what is your issue?

"I'm calling you out ...". This is clearly an attack, one that is even uncharacteristic of you. This internet bully act of yours is pathetic and the why is quite obvious.

"your VAST experience" is yet another slap. Why, because I have never claimed to be the foremost authority on anything. You, on the other hand, act like a spoiled child when anyone challenges your experience or opinions.

No one speaks for benchrest shooters in the USA, neither you nor I. You have opinions, like postal matches being an "impediment". I have different opinions, like postal matches have value and create opportunities for shooters otherwise left out. All opinions are valuable, as long as they can be discussed intelligently and with respect. You have proven, time and time again, to be incapable of this simple courtesy. Nevertheless, everyone deserves a second chance.
 
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So, with your continued avoidance of my challenge, I now plan to ignore your further posts to me (unless I'm goaded further), as I have doen in the case of your boss Frank, who now seems to be describing himself in the second person to rationalize why HE can't shoot any actual REAL matches.

Its pretty clear if you DID have any broad airgun benchrest match experience, you would have been able to cite it, so I will ignore any of your further utterances with respect to "how it really is in America" from now on.

BTW in the last year, I have driven apprx. 15,000 miles to compete in airgun benchrest matches near and far, and feel it was well worth the effort, even though I also shoot in monthly on my own property as well.
 
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