In your opinion whats killing the group game

I think it comes down to $$$$$$
Lets say i want to shoot Raton, weekend match,LV,HV. I live in Phoenix. Thats 725 miles one way,10 hours.

5 Tanks of gas =$250-$300
3 Days Hotel =$225
Food = $150
Registration = $120
Components = $150
Misc = $ 50
________
Total $945

Thats to shoot 20 targets, Thats $47.25 Per Target !!!!!!
 
Per Target/Per Fish Prices

I think it comes down to $$$$$$
Lets say i want to shoot Raton, weekend match,LV,HV. I live in Phoenix. Thats 725 miles one way,10 hours.

5 Tanks of gas =$250-$300
3 Days Hotel =$225
Food = $150
Registration = $120
Components = $150
Misc = $ 50
________
Total $945

Thats to shoot 20 targets, Thats $47.25 Per Target !!!!!!

About the same price per fish as in a fishing tournament???
Assuming you can catch fish!!!!
 
Times have changed, priorities are different for many. The game has advanced till the rules are almost killing the sport. The classes are almost redundant with the lightweight equipment available. Look at pictures of the parking lot 20 years ago. Big name shooters lived in tent trailers, vans, tents and slept on front porches and couches. Now look today and there are outfits that cost more than my current home. It is not really about the money.
It could be shortened up to varmint and unlimited. If one class shot 1 day and the other shot the second day then all who can afford to shoot 1 gun can go home after the day is over or try there hand with a varmint rifle in unlimited. The way it is set up now, if you can shoot 1 day, you get to shoot 1 rifle or 2 very similar capable rifles at 100 yds and go home with nothing but maybe a yardage pc of wood. It is rarely about the money as that has never been easy for most. But if you have a family and other obligations and shooting 1 day sucks, then why scrape and scrounge to get it all together just to go without a chance of succeeding for anything. It has become pointless for anyone who has a family at home.
It used to be different.
It is just the way things change and their isn't a lot you can do about it.
 
About those fishing tournaments....My buddy Mark Luksic and myself found a good spot to throw a spinner the day before the tournament so we signed up. I don't remember which one of us did it but one of us swapped to a crank bait and fouled hooked a small (real small) sun perch. That was all we had so instead of attending the weigh in we just went home.

We shot poorly now and then, more now than then, but it didn't seem to matter as much as not catching any fish.
 
Times have changed, priorities are different for many. The game has advanced till the rules are almost killing the sport. The classes are almost redundant with the lightweight equipment available. Look at pictures of the parking lot 20 years ago. Big name shooters lived in tent trailers, vans, tents and slept on front porches and couches. Now look today and there are outfits that cost more than my current home. It is not really about the money.
It could be shortened up to varmint and unlimited. If one class shot 1 day and the other shot the second day then all who can afford to shoot 1 gun can go home after the day is over or try there hand with a varmint rifle in unlimited. The way it is set up now, if you can shoot 1 day, you get to shoot 1 rifle or 2 very similar capable rifles at 100 yds and go home with nothing but maybe a yardage pc of wood. It is rarely about the money as that has never been easy for most. But if you have a family and other obligations and shooting 1 day sucks, then why scrape and scrounge to get it all together just to go without a chance of succeeding for anything. It has become pointless for anyone who has a family at home.
It used to be different.
It is just the way things change and their isn't a lot you can do about it.


Yhea, it kinda' sorta' seems that way BUT....TB, driving the same OLD motorhome he drove in 1998 can still blow our doors off!!


/
 
About those fishing tournaments....My buddy Mark Luksic and myself found a good spot to throw a spinner the day before the tournament so we signed up. I don't remember which one of us did it but one of us swapped to a crank bait and fouled hooked a small (real small) sun perch. That was all we had so instead of attending the weigh in we just went home.

We shot poorly now and then, more now than then, but it didn't seem to matter as much as not catching any fish.

Tell me about it CCBW, one of my buddies just bought an $85,000 Bass boat. What does that raise the price/per pound of fish to???? Fishing rods $225/ea, reels/$250/ea.....

Makes my Triton TR19 Pro look like a kyack.

.
 
Times have changed, priorities are different for many. The game has advanced till the rules are almost killing the sport. The classes are almost redundant with the lightweight equipment available. Look at pictures of the parking lot 20 years ago. Big name shooters lived in tent trailers, vans, tents and slept on front porches and couches. Now look today and there are outfits that cost more than my current home. It is not really about the money.
It could be shortened up to varmint and unlimited. If one class shot 1 day and the other shot the second day then all who can afford to shoot 1 gun can go home after the day is over or try there hand with a varmint rifle in unlimited. The way it is set up now, if you can shoot 1 day, you get to shoot 1 rifle or 2 very similar capable rifles at 100 yds and go home with nothing but maybe a yardage pc of wood. It is rarely about the money as that has never been easy for most. But if you have a family and other obligations and shooting 1 day sucks, then why scrape and scrounge to get it all together just to go without a chance of succeeding for anything. It has become pointless for anyone who has a family at home.
It used to be different.
It is just the way things change and their isn't a lot you can do about it.

I tend to agree.

The way things have evolved, the Two Gun Format might be a detriment to Benchrest.

In order to make the Two Gun Format more palatable to Clubs and Match Directors, most Clubs shoot both classe's 100 yardage one day, then the 200 the next day. If a shooter can attend just one day, he cannot compete for a Grand Agg.

The thing is, most shooters don't even change Rifles. A legal LV is simply shot in both classes.

A few years back, the Sporter rules were totally revamped to do away with just about all restrictions except no true return to battery feature and weight, which temained at 10.5 pounds. Basically a 10.5 lb Unlimited Bag Gun.

How many have you seen at Match in the past years. At the Nationals last year, when Class Sporter as fired, how many shooters simply shot their LV in the class. I bet you could count the number on "Sporters" on one hand.

It was the same back when we had the .230 caliber rule that separated LV and Sporter. At one Nationals I attended in Kansas City, only 4 participants shot a 22, the entire rest of the field simply shot their "Sporter.

The truth is, Benchrest just needs two classes, Bag Gun and Unlimited. The Rules for the Bag Gun Class could simply be set at what is now Heavy Varmint. The Unlimited could just stay as they are.

Chances are, more shooters would participate, (at the local and Region level), if there were one day shoots.

This is how Varmint for Score is set up. One Class, you go to a Match, shoot two yardages combined for a Grand Agg and go home.

The traditionalist will say this will ruin the Nationals, have affect on the records, and be contrary to the general mandate of Benchrest. This might be true. But it doesn't solve the problem of fewer and fewer participants in Group Shooting at the Local and Region level.
 
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in your opinion whats killing the group game

How about shooting 1 class a day? 10o yds in the Am and 200 in the afternoon?
THat way it,s just 1 day for the shooter, the second day would be another class for those who travel and want t shoot two classes.
What do you think on that?
 
It’s a pretty big ordeal to move frames and flags both days. No one wants to help move them as it is

I personally don’t want to drive a few hundred miles for a one day match. I like having the 2 and 3 gun aggs gives you a chance to come back not just one mistake and completely over with
There are local non registered matches around for the one day events
A registered BR match is and should be a big deal.
 
I don't attend any longer but based on my thoughts of several years ago...I completely agree with Tim.

Jackie - Maybe that's the reason folks don't host one day group matches. Somebody in a "hotspot" should give it try!
 
A registered BR match is and should be a big deal.

It is, as long as Shooters show up.

That's what this discussion is about.

The way I see it. Big matches that have a pedigree, such as World Team Qualifyers and National Events are still drawing good crowds. It's the local Regional Matches run by Clubs or Private Ranges that are lacking in support. Or disappearing all together.

At Tomball, we have been having a Registered Group Match for 5 decades. Not anymore. Why? Very few cared enough to show up in April of this year. Keep in mind, we are in the second or third largest metropolitan area in the entire Country. 14 shooters.

Why bother?

We lost Denton as well. It's a huge club. No participation and no one willing to do the work.

There are no Group Matches in the other State that makes up the Gulf Coast Region, Louisianna. We shoot Varmint for Score there.

Walker County is having good turnouts, but not in Group. They can hold Varmint for Score and Claybreak Matches with little hassle, have better participation, and do it in one day.

Larry is hosting the NBRSA 200-300 Long Range Nationals at Walker County in October. I believe that how the Group Shooters respond to this will determine if he has any more Group Matches in the future.

Tim, I am as sick about this as anybody. When I first started shooting in the mid '90's, Matches had cut off limits. You had to register early to get in. Now, they can't even entrees to pay for the awards.
 
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Jackie, I would have loved to seen it been a part of things then.
The excitement at a big match with close to 100 competitors is something special.
I do hope things take a turn for the better. I dont have the answer either. But I'm just not sure cutting registered matches to one day is it. But not trying anything sure isn't an answer !
 
I agree with Jackie. I've said for some time that if you want young blood in the sport, you have to make it feasible for them to participate. Matches that carry out for days require time from work and family, not to mention cost more for meals and motels. It may not be a popular statement but, we fuss about not having young shooters while the game is built to suit retirees with expendable income.

We have to have ranges, people to run matches and people to shoot in them. Competing for range time at public ranges is a tough deal, even for one open Saturday a month...much less several days. We have to make matches as feasible and friendly to ranges and match directors as possible and consider the output by the people attending, as well.
 
in your opinion whats killing the group game

Hers my take on a one day event.
start time 800 if all goes well it would finish the 100 yd event by 12.30 then lunch 1 hour 1.30 that give,s the target crew a 1 hour window a lunch to set up the frames If a bit more was needed so what''
start the 200 yd stage when the frames are up and working, even it it took 2 hours... shoot the 200 yd stage., We have a lot of daylight left in the summer months.
And you would still be done way before you ran out of light'
 
Very few people know why we have 2 main bodies of benchrest, NBRSA and IBS, yet it still remains divided. There are not that many shooters that there had or has to be 2 governing bodies. But we are still split and it probably will not change. We hang on to the past even if it is to our detriment.

It used to be a big advantage to have a HV as the 3 lbs was a big advantage. It isn,t a big deal anymore. You can shoot 3 classes at the nationals with 1 gun and not be at a disadvantage, which makes the varmint/ sporter classes redundant for most except to hang onto the past.

A single varmint class and an unlimited would be very viable. With the size of some ranges you can even use half the range for 100 and the other half at 200. Just switch the moving backer drive. The varmint class could be as simple as a 12 lb hv and all the varmint rules apply and the shoot would be on one day. For those wanting a second event start a 200 unlimited the second day and finish at 100. Volunteers are there already and if they want to compete in the afternoon than help change over at noon. Everyone should help! Just make sure they have the extra time. Unlimited could run 5 shot groups to keep it simple for non national events.

Do we really want to change and keep it interesting and viable or do we want to just keep going the way they have been.

As a disclaimer, I have to admit that I have competed very little in the last 10 years. I used to live and breathe benchrest both score and group but as my kids got older and things got to the point I was just a part time shooter without any possible trophies or prizes, I went to shooting trap with my kids, Will probably never make it to the big leagues in trap but it has been a ton of fun. Always come back to this sight as I was always more a rifle shooter and have still shot some local matches when time has allowed me. I still remember all the stories Stan Buchtel, George Kelbly, Vic Swindlehurst, Warner Hail told and standing by Walt and Eunice Berger and Glen Newick at my first Super Shoot and talking with Bill Forester till we realized he had just missed his relay. But time has moved on.

The problem is that unless most are onboard we will just divide things up more and it will further break things apart. We do not need another governing body in Benchrest.

Even though I have rambled on a bit, I hope it helps.
 
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Gee Wiz John, must be nice not go to shoots, reminisce about how great the old days were, tell everyone running matches today they should be doing it according to your wishes, and then likely still not go to their shoot! All it takes to grow this sport is for people to get off their butt and organize an event. Sadly most would rather sit on the sidelines and tell everyone else what to do. Including an apparent complete rewrite of the National Tournament format by a guy who by his own addmission shoots very little in the last 10 years!

Shooting registered group shoots will never be all things to all people. It will never be cheap enough, it will never be easy enough, it will never be short enough, or long enough, it will never be convenient enough. Stop trying to dumb down this game, there is no need to do that. This is the top fuel of the shooting world, Let’s respect that and play off the notion that this is the highest level of competition. This will attract those seeking that level of competition.

It is not about which sanctioning bodies are in use, it is about people organizing events.

We have had great success at our club by raising the performance bar, by running schools, by helping newbies, by raising entry fees to cover paid target and scoring crews, by paying the club for using the range, by giving competitors a path to national or world level competition. BR has a rich tradition of helping the new guys, make sure that hasn’t been lost.

No need to overthink this. If you want it to be like the old days, get out there and organize an event. It is that easy. No need to wait for the other guy to do it. Promote it like crazy, you would be surprised how many people will get on board. Use the Internet and Social media, it works for stuff like this!

BR is still the best kept secret in the shooting disciplines. Do something to change that. F class and prs are very well marketed to the shooting masses, and the turnout shows it, and their tournaments have more expensive gear, and just as long or longer tournaments!

I notice Finland had 50 shooters at their group shoot last weekend. Naturally they had lots of non Finnish people there, however kudos to them, this is amazing in a country of 5-6 million people. Something is working there.

A lot of food for thought.

Rick


Very few people know why we have 2 main bodies of benchrest, NBRSA and IBS, yet it still remains divided. There are not that many shooters that there had or has to be 2 governing bodies. But we are still split and it probably will not change. We hang on to the past even if it is to our detriment.

It used to be a big advantage to have a HV as the 3 lbs was a big advantage. It isn,t a big deal anymore. You can shoot 3 classes at the nationals with 1 gun and not be at a disadvantage, which makes the varmint/ sporter classes redundant for most except to hang onto the past.

A single varmint class and an unlimited would be very viable. With the size of some ranges you can even use half the range for 100 and the other half at 200. Just switch the moving backer drive. The varmint class could be as simple as a 12 lb hv and all the varmint rules apply and the shoot would be on one day. For those wanting a second event start a 200 unlimited the second day and finish at 100. Volunteers are there already and if they want to compete in the afternoon than help change over at noon. Everyone should help! Just make sure they have the extra time. Unlimited could run 5 shot groups to keep it simple for non national events.

Do we really want to change and keep it interesting and viable or do we want to just keep going the way they have been.

As a disclaimer, I have to admit that I have competed very little in the last 10 years. I used to live and breathe benchrest both score and group but as my kids got older and things got to the point I was just a part time shooter without any possible trophies or prizes, I went to shooting trap with my kids, Will probably never make it to the big leagues in trap but it has been a ton of fun. Always come back to this sight as I was always more a rifle shooter and have still shot some local matches when time has allowed me. I still remember all the stories Stan Buchtel, George Kelbly, Vic Swindlehurst, Warner Hail told and standing by Walt and Eunice Berger and Glen Newick at my first Super Shoot and talking with Bill Forester till we realized he had just missed his relay. But time has moved on.

The problem is that unless most are onboard we will just divide things up more and it will further break things apart. We do not need another governing body in Benchrest.

Even though I have rambled on a bit, I hope it helps.
 
Rick, you should relax a little. Now focus and read the question and the reply.
I am just giving an opinion of what I felt was wrong with the game and how it could be changed. While I remember some good times I am not advocating going back to the old ways. I do not plan to come back seriously into the sport for some time yet as I have other things I find more important in my life. I thought I made that clear. Benchrest is still a great sport. The work you and your fellow shooters have done in Alberta has been quite remarkable and you all receive my applause. But that does not change the drastic decrease in attendance at some of the other ranges. Not all the other clubs have been derelict in trying to promote it. It is just not working at this time and in the same way. Many shoots are well below 1/3 of the competitors that used to show up even though they are promoted. Years ago they turned shooters away and didn't have to promote this much. What has changed?
It would be wise to review all options and find what works best.
If you did not want to hear my opinion of what would get the new shooters to come and stick around than that is fine with me. If you think your opinion is the only one, than that is fine with me also. But I do not remember you that way at all. I guess things are just different on a keyboard than they are in life. Hope your having a good year.

John
 
Relax? Why? So we can all sit around and talk about the old days, and whine about the sport dying, and how we all have more important things to do? Give me a break. It is attitudes like this that will kill the sport in short order. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy to go on the internet and tell the whole world BR is dying. I see it every day on this board. We are all fighting an uphill battle here on many levels, no need to pile on evertime someone says the sport is dying. I happen to be singling you out, partly because I know you, which isn’t fair, so you are getting the brunt of this, but your comments are similar to so many inside and outside BR.

We are having a great year. I am enjoying all that we have accomplished as a group out here. Personally I can always shoot better.

Let’s see some action, not just words. I have put forth numerous examples of what has worked around here. I have invited anyone to contact me to discuss increasing their club attendance, although nobody has. We will have 10 people from our club at Holton this year. That is a 60 hr round trip drive for us. Imagine if every BR Club had this level of interest?

You asked what has changed? What has changed is people have numerous choices as to how they spend their free time. BR not only has to compete with all other shooting disciplines that didn’t exist 50 years ago, but it also has to compete with the incredibly short attention span people have these days. This is why you have to promote more than the old days, and promote in ways that didn’t exist 50 years ago. This is inescapable. Modern life is all about competition, in everything including how people spend their free time.

Of course this is a hot button topic! I want to be shooting BR well in to retirement but there seems to be a real defeatist attitude out in BR land that this sport is dead, and some people who seem determined to make sure it dies. I will never understand this.

Weird thing is the interest from some countries seems strong. Go figure. There is something to this I haven’t quite figured out.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but it would be nice to look at options to attract newcomers that have worked at other clubs, instead of rewriting the course of fire for the national tournament as the opening salvo.

Probably more than anyone cares to read, but none the less that is what I see happening out there with our beloved sport of BR.

Rick


Rick, you should relax a little. Now focus and read the question and the reply.
I am just giving an opinion of what I felt was wrong with the game and how it could be changed. While I remember some good times I am not advocating going back to the old ways. I do not plan to come back seriously into the sport for some time yet as I have other things I find more important in my life. I thought I made that clear. Benchrest is still a great sport. The work you and your fellow shooters have done in Alberta has been quite remarkable and you all receive my applause. But that does not change the drastic decrease in attendance at some of the other ranges. Not all the other clubs have been derelict in trying to promote it. It is just not working at this time and in the same way. Many shoots are well below 1/3 of the competitors that used to show up even though they are promoted. Years ago they turned shooters away and didn't have to promote this much. What has changed?
It would be wise to review all options and find what works best.
If you did not want to hear my opinion of what would get the new shooters to come and stick around than that is fine with me. If you think your opinion is the only one, than that is fine with me also. But I do not remember you that way at all. I guess things are just different on a keyboard than they are in life. Hope your having a good year.

John
 
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