If you could only buy one firearm for a solid investment........

Had a friend who stashed away a lot of premium Perazzi shotguns & hasn't lost on them. Maybe the answer is to look for what has significant hand work involved - that's what's increased in price every year.
 
IMHO, you could buy any of the shelf BASIC rifle/shot gun /pistol and in a years time it gains 8-12%, providing it's NIB. As an example last year a Rem SPS was $400 +- this year it's $425-450. Semi Auto (black rifles seem to go a bit higher).
 
VaniB said:
But, again....you need a license and a store front if your planning on buying quantity..
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I know some guys who buy and sell a lot of guns without having an FFL. Is there a definition of "quantity" that determines when you need a license and when you don't? Or, when private party sales transition to a business?
 
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VaniB said:
If you ask me, a 7%-10% yearly return on your guns looks good.
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If it's all private sales without a business and you report profits to the IRS as ordinary income, your gains will shrink a lot. If it's a business and you write off expenses you can preserve more of your profit.
 
Thanks for the input gentlemen. I think John K. is describing an easier route and more along the lines of what I'm focusing on. But would it work? Bigger dollar-item guns require a smaller quantity of them, as well as they would provide a proportionately larger profit. But, can I readilly find well heeled patent leather kind of buyers for it later. (?)

Roger T, I think you're absolutely right that all I would need to do is simply hoard away some new Remington VSSFII rifles. You know that you'd never have trouble unloading them a year or two later. But as I mentioned, in order to make about $7-$10,000 profit, you'd have to sell so many of them (like 100 rifles) that you almost certainly would be risking federal charges. Buying and selling 100 rifles for profit would certainly be viewed as anything but "hobby" collecting..
 
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Perhaps you're right. Maybe I should just forget about guns as an investment and consider something else. How about stashing away a new Harley in a crate full of peanut foam?
 
Another option would be Optics or Rimfire ammo (check with me first so you don't buy MY lot:rolleyes:) they both seem to be adjusted UP fairly well each year.
 
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Roger T said:
Another option would be Optics or Rimfire ammo (check with me first so you don't buy MY lot:rolleyes:) they both seem to be adjusted UP fairly well each year.
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Roger, speaking about optics I bought a 6 inch refractor from Astro-Physics in 1986 for about $1400. Today a similar sized instrument will cost you around $7000. Price appreciation though, seems to follow quality. Quality optics, produced in limited quantity and taken care of seems to follow the new pricing up, up and up. And we get the benefit of enjoying using it along the way. --greg
 
Seems like whoever is in the white house determines the price on AKs,ARs,auto pistols that kinda stuff. I bought a colt H-bar before Bill Clinton took office. Gave too much for it at a gun show. They were bringing more than list. They went down in price after George Bush took office. They werent new but anything pre 64 with Winchester wrote on it was a good investment.
 
vicvanb said:
I know some guys who buy and sell a lot of guns without having an FFL. Is there a definition of "quantity" that determines when you need a license and when you don't? Or, when private party sales transition to a business?
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Many, many years ago, the head of the ATF in Boston was quoted as saying any private individual who attempted to sell more than one firearm per year was operating an unlicensed business and would be prosecuted.

I don't think people that crazy are still in charge but, afaik, the line is gray and wide. Lots of people spend time dancing on that line but when the BATFE finally decides you've crossed it your life goes downhill rather quickly.

Even the folks in the home-build hobby, who have a strong interest in really knowing where that line is, don't seem to have a good handle on it. They tend to agree that a key component is how long the firearm is held. You're not building for re-sale if you hold onto the gun for 1/2/5/10 years, depending on who you're talking to. Nobody seems to know for sure.

I've never seen an ATF letter ruling on the subject. If they actually set a hard limit, thousands of new people would enter the "unlicensed dealer business" overnight because they would know that all they have to do is sell one less than the magic number to escape prosecution. That could be very profitable and much simpler, since your inventory level would be your investment capital divided by one less than the magic number. For those reasons, I don't think that such a level has ever been definitively established.

I sure hope someone around here can prove me wrong, though.
 
vicvanb said:
Not only from the BATF--they involve the IRS too.
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Good point. Referrals for undocumented businesses flow from BATFE to IRS.

However, info doesn't usually flow the other way. Unless criminal tax fraud is being alleged, the IRS Revenue Agent who audits your unlicensed gun-selling business does not care that the business is illegal as long as you report your income and pay your taxes.

Plenty of drug-dealers file their tax returns and pay their taxes (well, under-report and under-pay, I'm sure) just to protect themselves against the DEA piling on with a criminal tax fraud referral to the IRS. When they file, sometimes by literally sending their attorney to the local IRS office with a suitcase full of cash and a 1040 filled out for "John Doe", the civil side of IRS simply doesn't care about the illegal source of the funds. Of course, when things like that happen, the criminal side of the IRS often already knows about it and shows up at the same time. There's nothing stopping anyone from employing a similar (but hopefully proactive) strategy when selling guns.

My point is - If someone decides to engage in a business that might get them arrested by the BATFE, it would be a good idea to file and pay taxes from the beginning. The IRS won't care and they'll avoid a future criminal tax fraud prosecution.

What bothers me about all this and what makes it actually on-topic for this thread is that anyone who considers buying firearms for investment purposes actually has to think about this stuff. If you're paying a half-million for a Walker Colt that you intend to hold onto for 10 years and then sell for double that (you hope), then no one is going to accuse you of running an illegal firearms dealership. But if you buy a dozen hunting rifles a month for a couple of years, then start showing up at gun shows selling your oldest stock for a couple of hundred profit at roughly the same rate you bought them, then the real possibility exists that a potentially workable investment strategy will be viewed as an ongoing (unlicensed, illegal) business.

The original poster specified a 2 to 5 year time frame. I think my earlier comment about dancing on a wide, gray line may have been more insightful than I realized at the time.

So far, I like the suggestions of LEO-marked Colt ARs, basic Cooper rifles, and high-end shotguns.

The ARs have markings and people pay for markings. Have you ever noticed how a worthless, worn-out piece-o-crap rifle somehow becomes a magic dollar-attracting machine when it has a "Property of U.S." stamp of some sort on it? I once saw a table full of Gamo 126 sidelever air rifles at a gun show. They were beat to heck and that particular model has long-term maintenance issues, anyway. They might have been worth $20 each, maybe $30 if I really wanted one and had all the seals sitting at home to do the rebuild. The seller had them marked at $600 each and said he had no trouble selling them to collectors simply because they were ex-Army trainers and properly marked as such. Insanity. Profitable insanity, but insanity, nonetheless.

The Coopers are good quality without getting crazy and everybody recognizes that. Pedestrian specs make them more suitable to a broader range of buyers so they'd be good as relatively short-term investments. Long-term is a whole 'nother ballgame where the weird and rare often tend to bring a premium. Nylon 66s, for example, have gone up too far but have you tried to buy one of those (I can't remember the model number off the top of my head) single shot bolt action .22s in the Zytel stocks that Remington made back in the 60s? Given enough time, the big bucks are in the weird stuff.

High-end shotguns I agree with not just because of the value of hand-fitting but also because the shotgun guys always seem to have money. The same isn't true for the pistol guys, even though there's lots of hand-fitting on some pistols. I've never understood the demographics - shotgunners have money, pistoleros are broke, and the rifle guys are somewhere in between. There are plenty of exceptions to that rule but have you noticed how broadly applicable it is? In any event, you can find meticulously hand-fitted revolvers from Freedom Arms that sell for around $2K new but in barely used condition fall to $1600. Well-used (but still more accurate than a lot of new, off-the-shelf hunting rifles) FAs that would sell for well over $2K new can often be found for $1100-1200.

Personally, I tend to buy old single-shot XP-100s. While there are lots of choices for actions these days, when someone wants a bolt-action pistol, the XP tends to be the first thing they think of. I could probably sell any of my older acquisitions for 4 times what I paid.

But however much I think the OP has gotten some good answers, I feel the need to stress that the 2 to 5 year hold window he's specified is too short. If you buy a lot (definition of "a lot" completely dependent on how much coffee the BATFE had to drink this morning) of firearms with the intent of selling them in 2 years, IMO you're asking for trouble.

Hold for 10 years, hang onto the original paperwork so you can document the passage of time, and I don't think anyone can make a reasonable case against you.

Be careful, VanIB. You have a good idea but I'd hate to see it blow up in your face.
 
Wilbur said:
Lynn is spot on. Instant return!
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I don't care about return on investment. If anybody can point me to an immediately available supply of XP-based long-barrel Calfee 22s, I have cash. :)

On a more serious note, I missed the cheap .38 revolver dump 20+ years ago after U.S. police switched to autos (mostly Glock .40s). For a while there, you could find K and L frame S&W revolvers with fixed sights for under $100 all over the place and sometimes under $50.

I notice that SOG is selling 4" Taurus 82s, apparently dumped by some foreign government (with all the baggage that entails), for $140 each. If I were an FFL-holding gunsmith and had the skills to tune and recondition those things, I'd buy all I could right now and then dribble them out at gun shows over the next 10 years at the prevailing market rate. I wouldn't be surprised if I could double my money.

For a non-FFL holder who has access to an FFL willing to do transfers for low dollars (There are still a few $15 guys out there), I'm willing to bet you could buy one a week for as long as they last, hang on for 5 years, then start making $50-$100 profit on each one.

Just a theory.
 
Hi Benenglish...there are 2 Calfee xp based guns for sale on Gunbroker right now!

Good luck

Bn1
 
benenglish quote;

"If you buy a lot of firearms with the intent of selling them in 2 years, IMO you're asking for trouble.

Be careful, VanIB. You have a good idea but I'd hate to see it blow up in your face."


Please don't falsely imply that breaking federal law is what I was espousing or proposing to do.

You must be confusing me with what somebody else here said, and not read my posts. I've clearly stated that buying firearms in quantity to turn a profit without having an FFL is illegal and would make you eligable for jail time and could cost you $100,000 in attorney fees. (post #16, 3rd paragraph. Post #21, first paragraph. And post #26., 2nd paragraph) I mentioned that a Colt LEO rifle, or a Remington VSSFII are bound to go up in value, but I didn't suggest anywhere that these or any other firearms should be bought in quantity.....which I DID clearly say would indeed be breaking the law.
For the public record, if I ever did decide to purchase one or two Colt LEO rifles, or Remington VSSF rifles, or a Perazzi shotgun, it would be something that I happen to like from a hobbiests stand point, and what I at the same time desire to see it as a good investment for 2-5 years.

Now let's end this thread as I really don't like where it's going.
 
If you are middle-age you will not live long enough to make money on the resale.

A few bucks sure but not real money.
 
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