IBS Short Range Caliber Limit?

Joe, the topic or you are not unwelcome, quite the opposite. I just feel that you are making a wrong assumption about the accuracy level needed to compete in score. Score has the same accuracy requirements as group shooting, different game but the same level of accuracy is required in my opinion and experience to be competitive.
 
Greyfox said:
Joe,
I don't know that it is unwelcome, it's just that those of us who have shot score for quite a while can clearly see that you are unclear on the concept.
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Ummm... I think I have a pretty DEEP understanding of the concept. If you can "clearly see" my understanding on the subject, I suggest a new prescription might be necessary. I don't know how anyone who has shot score for quite a while has not at some point wanted a larger diameter bullet when you see that little itty bitty bit of white between your bullet hole and the scoring line.

I would certainly engage in a meaningful conversation on the matter. You will need an open mind though.
 
steve stanley said:
Joe, the topic or you are not unwelcome, quite the opposite. I just feel that you are making a wrong assumption about the accuracy level needed to compete in score.
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Steve,
I have never once questioned the accuracy level needed. I think some of you guys are making that assumption.
 
Joe Woosman said:
A .400 tuned .308 only needs to be steered to an accuracy of about .400 to hit all tens.
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An important factor in score is that all 25 shots are judged relative to a single POA (the dot). In a 5 shot group, you are judged by how close you can get 4 shots to the first one. Because groups grow with the number of shots, a rifle that can do a 0.400" 5-shot group may produce a 1.200" 25-shot group, and that won't get it done in score. If group shooters shot 25-shot groups, then we could compare apples to apples.

Cheers,
Keith
 
Joe Woosman said:
Hehehe. Howdy Dave! Been a while.
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Welcome back friend.

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mks said:
An important factor in score is that all 25 shots are judged relative to a single POA (the dot). In a 5 shot group, you are judged by how close you can get 4 shots to the first one. Because groups grow with the number of shots, a rifle that can do a 0.400" 5-shot group may produce a 1.200" 25-shot group, and that won't get it done in score. If group shooters shot 25-shot groups, then we could compare apples to apples.

Cheers,
Keith
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Keith, I understand this well and it's somewhat apples to apples. Both games, 5 shots for five relays. Group shooters shoot four shots at a bullet hole. Score shooters shoot five shots at a dot. It's only the scoring that complicates things.
 
Joe Woosman said:
Ummm... I think I have a pretty DEEP understanding of the concept. If you can "clearly see" my understanding on the subject, I suggest a new prescription might be necessary. I don't know how anyone who has shot score for quite a while has not at some point wanted a larger diameter bullet when you see that little itty bitty bit of white between your bullet hole and the scoring line.

I would certainly engage in a meaningful conversation on the matter. You will need an open mind though.
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Joe,
I'll certainly agree about bullet size as it relates to the POA. Over the last couple of years, some of us mostly in KY, VA and TN have competed in a different form of score shooting - Ultimate Benchrest. We use targets that are caliber nuetral. So, the size of the bullet gives no advantage, only the accuracy of the rilfe and the skill of the shooter comes into play, thereby somewhat leveling the playing field. Many shooters have drug out their old 6PPC's, .222's and such. The result has been that while the 30BR still takes a majority of the custom class wins, it's possibly becuase there are more score rilfes built in this caliber. In the other classes the smaller calibers compete very well and win quite a bit.

I would think that if you could get benchrest quality barrels, bullets and dies you would have a chance. OTOH- there is a price to pay and the increased recoil would take it's toll on both the shooter and the accuracy. Go for it. Come back and show us where we have been wrong. I wish you luck.

Rick
 
Greyfox said:
We use targets that are caliber nuetral.
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If IBS scoring were caliber neutral, my concept would be laughable.

Greyfox said:
I would think that if you could get benchrest quality barrels, bullets and dies you would have a chance.
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I think this notion was trounced on rather quickly early in this thread with examples of the best efforts and equipment one could have and it shot like my old mans patch and ball flintlock.

Greyfox said:
OTOH- there is a price to pay and the increased recoil would take it's toll on both the shooter and the accuracy.
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A 275 grain bullet launched at about 1400 fps would have comparable recoil to a typical 30BR.

Greyfox said:
I wish you luck.
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Thank you.
 
steve stanley said:
This particular horse has been beat before, theoretical and real life are totally different things. A 250 with a .400 tuned rifle would be luck.
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A .308 averaging 0.400 is expected to shoot a 250 at 100 yards about 70% of the time as long as the group is centered on the x-dot. 70% seems a bit better than "luck." Not competitive in the real world, though.

WARNING: There are some math and statistics (not just arithmetic) involved. See attached. You'll have to calculate the correction factors for 25 shots (about 0.513).

Regardless of whether statistics interest you, the following are true:

1. A more precise rifle is better, regardless of discipline.

2. A larger diameter bullet is better for best-edge score shooting, all else (i.e., precision) being equal. A 30BR can shoot 0.064 worse than a 6PPC and still win a score shoot.
 

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tobybradshaw said:
A .308 averaging 0.400 is expected to shoot a 250 at 100 yards about 70% of the time as long as the group is centered on the x-dot. 70% seems a bit better than "luck." Not competitive in the real world, though.

WARNING: There are some math and statistics (not just arithmetic) involved. See attached. You'll have to calculate the correction factors for 25 shots (about 0.513).

Regardless of whether statistics interest you, the following are true:

1. A more precise rifle is better, regardless of discipline.

2. A larger diameter bullet is better for best-edge score shooting, all else (i.e., precision) being equal. A 30BR can shoot 0.064 worse than a 6PPC and still win a score shoot.
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I really don't have a dog in this fight, but if you are going to shoot score with a .400 agg capable gun I hope you have very low expectations for the results. As for using something larger than a 30, if you can get match quality bullets and barrels I'm sure it would be doable but that is a very big if at the present time. I wish Joe the best of luck if he pursues this and I'll be glad to congratulate him if he is successful.
 
Joe Woosman said:
Hi all. It's been awhile. Seems to me the IBS caliber limit was .40 in the past. I read through the newest rule book a few times and the only place I saw a caliber limit was in long range benchrest, and that was .40. Does that also apply to short range or has something changed?
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Joe
The long range guys limited the size of the projectile to .40 or less to minimize target frame damage. There has never been a size limit in short range.
Dick
 
FBecigneul said:
There may be other caliber bullets, barrels, and dies out there that are every bit as good as the present bunch in .22cal, 6mm, and .30BR but who wants to spend the money testing when it's easier to shoot what we know is available?
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Now what fun would that be? For me, the game is about the testing. Doing well at a match is only a confirmation of the work done. Honestly, I've competed at many different sports. Traveling and competing a lot takes its toll on other areas of my life and that desire just isn't there anymore. Building a better mousetrap is. The complements on the cases I used to machine were far more gratifying than winning a match trophy. If I can "compete" with new ideas and technology, that will be the goal. Besides, there's a 21WO score that needs to fall. :D
 
there seems to be a

Joe Woosman said:
Now what fun would that be? For me, the game is about the testing. Doing well at a match is only a confirmation of the work done. Honestly, I've competed at many different sports. Traveling and competing a lot takes its toll on other areas of my life and that desire just isn't there anymore. Building a better mousetrap is. The complements on the cases I used to machine were far more gratifying than winning a match trophy. If I can "compete" with new ideas and technology, that will be the goal. Besides, there's a 21WO score that needs to fall. :D
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conflict here. You will only break that 21 w/o score if you compete.
 
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