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B Rosen
Guest
I am with Danny. (all but 10 shots)
IBS 1000 yard DQ rule change
- Thread starter Chisolm
- Start date
Counting shots on target for score when not all shots are present is flawed.
Marksmanship in pure form is about accuracy and precision. Our goal is to put the required number of shots at a desired location on the target; in this case it is 10 shots in the small concentric circles, preferabally x ring. Conditions help to split the field both in terms of group and score.
Alteration to the rules particularly the penalty/DQ argument comes into conflict with core fundamentals in marksmanship...AIMING AND HITTING A CHOSEN POINT
At the risk of hijacking the thread, I like Danny's idea of the ten shot course of fire. The main problem I see with current scoring methods is the actual match format. We shoot group and score simultaneously, a match within a match. I think there should be a way to aggregate a Grand Champion for matches taking into consideration both group and score in both classes to decide a Grand Multi-Gun Champion for group and score combined over the whole rifle match.
How many times have you seen a guy shoot a perfect score where he wins the relay in both and goes to the group shootoff? Well, thats how it is supposed to be right. His small group all in the ten ring sort of gets discounted and left on the table.
Sorry for muddying the waters. Mike
Marksmanship in pure form is about accuracy and precision. Our goal is to put the required number of shots at a desired location on the target; in this case it is 10 shots in the small concentric circles, preferabally x ring. Conditions help to split the field both in terms of group and score.
Alteration to the rules particularly the penalty/DQ argument comes into conflict with core fundamentals in marksmanship...AIMING AND HITTING A CHOSEN POINT
At the risk of hijacking the thread, I like Danny's idea of the ten shot course of fire. The main problem I see with current scoring methods is the actual match format. We shoot group and score simultaneously, a match within a match. I think there should be a way to aggregate a Grand Champion for matches taking into consideration both group and score in both classes to decide a Grand Multi-Gun Champion for group and score combined over the whole rifle match.
How many times have you seen a guy shoot a perfect score where he wins the relay in both and goes to the group shootoff? Well, thats how it is supposed to be right. His small group all in the ten ring sort of gets discounted and left on the table.
Sorry for muddying the waters. Mike
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TAE AKA FOUR ON
Guest
Danny says it best except the 10 shots for LG. Shoot the required 5 or 10 shots, have all the shots on the target,and receive a record target with a group size and score If you dont have a record target come back and try again.
Thomas Ellington ( I earned the Four On )
Thomas Ellington ( I earned the Four On )
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DJ300Ack
Guest
I'm with danny 10 shots L/G
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4Mesh
Guest
Wow, what a topic...
It goes without saying I agree with Joe. And you could add Danny's opinion to mine as well. I won't get into the 5/10 thing, whatever.
People who come up with these idea to change rules have positively no concept of how much work they might create with these "little" changes. It is a ROYAL pain in the ass. And, for what? I'll just use the PA club as an example, even though it isn't an IBS range. Let's say you have a good competitive gun and you get a penalty for 10" on TOP of your group. Oh, and btw, it was already bad enough that you missed the target. Who exactly are you trying to kid with this fictitious group? Forget about the relay, hell, your season is O.V.E.R. Say goodnight... There's no makin' it up. This is why they invented the 6 match agg. THAT is your chance to win and show your stuff. Leave 10 match aggs to those people who can hit the target all the time. And I say this having been in more than my share of horrible relays.
In the 40+ year history of the PA 1000 yard range, there has been ONE. Count em, ONE time that all shooters were off the target in a relay. That's a long time folks. Sooo???? There should be a rules, scoring and procedure change, sanctioning body wide, just in case that happens elsewhere? Are you kidding me? All so someone who shot bigger'n dogsht should get a score? In PA, they won't even help you carry your ____ to the car... Cya... And I consider those folks very compassionate!
The arguments against this are so many and run so deep... I don't even know what to say.
Frank, I'm glad you didn't tell me this when you were in! I can't believe you didn't get him pulled out of that "league". I have officially heard it all now.
It goes without saying I agree with Joe. And you could add Danny's opinion to mine as well. I won't get into the 5/10 thing, whatever.
People who come up with these idea to change rules have positively no concept of how much work they might create with these "little" changes. It is a ROYAL pain in the ass. And, for what? I'll just use the PA club as an example, even though it isn't an IBS range. Let's say you have a good competitive gun and you get a penalty for 10" on TOP of your group. Oh, and btw, it was already bad enough that you missed the target. Who exactly are you trying to kid with this fictitious group? Forget about the relay, hell, your season is O.V.E.R. Say goodnight... There's no makin' it up. This is why they invented the 6 match agg. THAT is your chance to win and show your stuff. Leave 10 match aggs to those people who can hit the target all the time. And I say this having been in more than my share of horrible relays.
In the 40+ year history of the PA 1000 yard range, there has been ONE. Count em, ONE time that all shooters were off the target in a relay. That's a long time folks. Sooo???? There should be a rules, scoring and procedure change, sanctioning body wide, just in case that happens elsewhere? Are you kidding me? All so someone who shot bigger'n dogsht should get a score? In PA, they won't even help you carry your ____ to the car... Cya... And I consider those folks very compassionate!
The arguments against this are so many and run so deep... I don't even know what to say.
I have a Grandson who plays soccer in CA. Now remember I said Ca !!!! Whenever a goal is scored, the team that scores a goal gathers around the goalie and gives him a cheer and then the opposing team is allowed to score a goal so NOONE feels bad. All games end in a tie.
That's like give a shot on paper when none occurred.
Frank, I'm glad you didn't tell me this when you were in! I can't believe you didn't get him pulled out of that "league". I have officially heard it all now.
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4Mesh
Guest
Hi Mike, been a while. How ya been anyhow?
I'm on record as being opposed to change, even when I knew it was a good thing. I, like Danny, was on a rules committee, and dreaded the thought of rules changes. If they actually made things better, I could see it. But, the way it looks to me, it appears as if people had more fun at 1KBR 40 years ago than they do now. The rule book was a fraction of its current self, yet somehow was more clear. Hit the target and we score it... Simple.
Even if a 9-on target was a relay winner, who would someone show it to? Seriously. I've shown people 100 targets and had them ask why all the shots were not in the x ring. Who am I gonna show this thing with 8 or 9 on? Yup, it was a bad day... Or even worse yet, it might have been my own fault.
During my days in the scoring room in PA, I saw a target once that had 9 shots in the black, under 4". Shot #10 was straight down the paper and was a half moon catching the lower edge of the target. Group size, 25.xxx. Score 87 or 88??? Can't remember exactly. Now, had shot #10 been 1/4" lower, there would have been a massive search to see which hole in the 9/10 ring had the double. However, we had proof that shot 10 was not in there. It was a 0.
By this rule, that target would have actually been BETTER by 10" had the shot 10 missed the paper? So, my vote would be for 30" penalty for the first shot off the target, and 10" additional for each thereafter!
I'd wager there'll be no statisticians signing the petition.
I'm on record as being opposed to change, even when I knew it was a good thing. I, like Danny, was on a rules committee, and dreaded the thought of rules changes. If they actually made things better, I could see it. But, the way it looks to me, it appears as if people had more fun at 1KBR 40 years ago than they do now. The rule book was a fraction of its current self, yet somehow was more clear. Hit the target and we score it... Simple.
Even if a 9-on target was a relay winner, who would someone show it to? Seriously. I've shown people 100 targets and had them ask why all the shots were not in the x ring. Who am I gonna show this thing with 8 or 9 on? Yup, it was a bad day... Or even worse yet, it might have been my own fault.
During my days in the scoring room in PA, I saw a target once that had 9 shots in the black, under 4". Shot #10 was straight down the paper and was a half moon catching the lower edge of the target. Group size, 25.xxx. Score 87 or 88??? Can't remember exactly. Now, had shot #10 been 1/4" lower, there would have been a massive search to see which hole in the 9/10 ring had the double. However, we had proof that shot 10 was not in there. It was a 0.
By this rule, that target would have actually been BETTER by 10" had the shot 10 missed the paper? So, my vote would be for 30" penalty for the first shot off the target, and 10" additional for each thereafter!
I'd wager there'll be no statisticians signing the petition.
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300ack
Guest
I'm with 4Mesh,Joe, DJ300Ack,and Danny-Experience knows best!!!!
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tim in tx
Guest
Hello gents,i hope all is well with you guys.Well my vote is 4 shots for light gun and 9 shots for heavy gun,5-10 are just cursed numbers for me. On the subject of dq's when i got dq'ed the last ,well i lost count,anyway it made me come back more focused each time,it just sticks to my brain ,and because of dq's it made me practice more and enabled me to move to the next level, going from super sucky to semi sucky and with more practice i may even make it to sucky by the nationals this year. good luck to all of you guys and may your shots all land on paper. tim in tx
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tim in tx
Guest
the thing is lynn people seem to think if you are dq'ed in ibs you are done pack it up and go home,which is not the case , it does not mean you are out by any means, for a light gun a dq would mean you are out on the grand agg and light agg , and you can still win your individual relay in the class you dq'ed in as well if you shoot a world record in the dq'ed class on the next target it would still count and you can still take home wood for heavy gun class if you shoot both classes.the nbrsa format with no individual relay wins goes by aggs only,in which a dq could be more devistating so the rule in my opinion fits the nbrsa format better . for ibs to adopt this i could see a few other rules having to be modified just to acomidate this rule to fit ibs format .i sure dont want to get dq'ed when i drive 1800 miles to shoot a match but the ibs present dq rule seems very fair to me . tim in tx
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Tim,
You are mistaken. Here is the rule.
VII.F.1.d.
All 10 shots for measured group and score must be on the target to qualify for awards.
Light gun: VII.F.2
All references in section VII.F.1 above to 9, 10 and 11 shots shall mean 4, 5 and 6 shots for the Light Gun course of fire.
I am not sure where you got the idea that you can win a relay that you are DQed in.
The only time you would have opportunity to shoot another target at that match and on that relay after having a shot off paper is if you are shooting at a range that uses an agg. to decide relay wins (Byers, CO is the only one I am aware of that does this) or at the Nationals where it is an agg. match.
The effect of the DQ is: We took your money but you didn't shoot in the match.
Did you mean NBRSA where you typed IBS?
James
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Cheechako
Guest
When NBRSA first started shooting Long Range in the mid 1990s it was believed by many that there would be few differences between it and other organizations. But, over the years it's become apparant that the only real similarity is that we all shoot 1000 yards (and 600 now).
NBRSA shoots for aggregates over 2 or 3 days. One bad target can hurt but you can always come back to win. Similar to point-blank Benchrest.
Most competitors at an NBRSA match drive a considerable distance to compete. For me, for example, 900 miles one-way is about average.
The IBS matches are geared toward local clubs and good old boy get-togethers. NBRSA is geared toward attracting shooters from all across the country (and good old boys get-togethers). DQ rules work well for IBS and I'm sure they will be around for a long time. Few shooters welcome change. Penalty rules work well for NBRSA. A change to DQ would effectively spell the end of NBRSA Long Range. Not that anyone has even suggested such a thing.
Both organizations have their own niche, as it should be.
JMHO
Ray
NBRSA shoots for aggregates over 2 or 3 days. One bad target can hurt but you can always come back to win. Similar to point-blank Benchrest.
Most competitors at an NBRSA match drive a considerable distance to compete. For me, for example, 900 miles one-way is about average.
The IBS matches are geared toward local clubs and good old boy get-togethers. NBRSA is geared toward attracting shooters from all across the country (and good old boys get-togethers). DQ rules work well for IBS and I'm sure they will be around for a long time. Few shooters welcome change. Penalty rules work well for NBRSA. A change to DQ would effectively spell the end of NBRSA Long Range. Not that anyone has even suggested such a thing.
Both organizations have their own niche, as it should be.
JMHO
Ray
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tim in tx
Guest
james ,i did say that incorrectly,you would be out in the grand agg and light gun agg,but not heavy gun agg .you could still win first place in heavy gun group and score agg, individual relay.
Tim,
Unless you are talking about the Nationals it is a 2 or 3 target relay agg. The 2 or 3 targets determine who wins the relay(both or alll three targets are shot on one relay, depending on wether you are shooting a 2 or 3 target agg.) As far as I know nobody is using a 2 target agg. Then the Relay winner goes on to the Shootoff. The only time the 3 targets are looked at individually is for IBS Records. Also only target one is used for 6 match and 10 match records, target 2 and 3 are ignored.
Clear as mud now?
James
Unless you are talking about the Nationals it is a 2 or 3 target relay agg. The 2 or 3 targets determine who wins the relay(both or alll three targets are shot on one relay, depending on wether you are shooting a 2 or 3 target agg.) As far as I know nobody is using a 2 target agg. Then the Relay winner goes on to the Shootoff. The only time the 3 targets are looked at individually is for IBS Records. Also only target one is used for 6 match and 10 match records, target 2 and 3 are ignored.
Clear as mud now?
James
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tim in tx
Guest
yes sir,i was talking about the nationals.i do apologize for the misunderstanding. tim in tx