How to use Bukys TSI Tuners

Normmatzen said:
Sorry folks, but aside from finding out how to actually tune a tuner, I have read nothing above that gives me a warm and fuzzy about how tuning, loads or tuners, works.

So, if you good folks would go to Varmint Al's web site and click on "Esten's Rifle and Tuner" along the left side, then click on, "The Vibrations of a Barrel Tuned for Positive Compensation," by a phD from Border Barrels in Scotland. The good doctor built himself a couple jigs to measure both the exact time the bullet exits the barrel as well as monitoring the instantaneous angle the barrel is pointing. Now, I too am an engineer. At least Santa Clara University thinks so, and I also spent 40 years designing analog integrated circuits in Silicon Valley. And, I did learn that if you introduce an impulse to a linear system, you can monitor the output and descern everything there is to know about the system's response. The nearly instantaneous ignition of the powder makes a pretty good imitation of a physical impulse. And, the good doctor outlines the theory of tuning pretty clearly.

Then, you want to continue reading Al's treatise on a comparison of his (I guess) simulations of Esten's rifle plus tuner by FEA (Finite Element Analysis) and Esten's testing of his rifle at the range. And, they agree quite well.

I'm going to get my nice shiny new Bartlein Barrel reamed to 6BRX in the next couple weeks and I am having the gun smith turn down the end of the barrel so I can fit a tuner made by my mentor in Australia. I'm now a believer and also, now I know how to tune it! Only thing left is to figure out how to predict the amount of change in the tuner setting for a given range!

Norm
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My thinking is that sooner or later investigative people like you, Al and Geoff (and a few others) will find that todays tuner designs do not really have any "Adjustments" that truly affect the variables that would make a truly adjustable tuner. Those that didn't get hung up accepting the fantasy theory are getting closer, but no one is there yet - there are many more who are of the "Close Enough" crowd that some have simply quit looking. (And then there is the One who thinks it's solved - and has therefore quit advancing - but that's rimfire). But there is also the fact that harmonics are not all there is to tuning a shooting system - it's an important part - but it's not the whole thing.
 
Norm
If your from Silicon Valley our paths may have already crossed? I worked for Avantek,Harris Farinon,Celeritek,Endgate,Space Microwave,Microsource,HP and Loral Space and Missile to name a few.
Ross Anderson ring a bell? How about Lang?
Anyway it sounds like your building a longrange 600/1000 yard gun from your choice of chamberings so I assume Sacramento is your club? Which dicipline benchrest or F-Class?
Lynn
 
I think that the discussion of tuners has largely ignored a couple of things. Rimfire tuners on unlimited rifles(no weight limit) may be configured so as to move a node to the muzzle because of a lack of rifle weight limit, so that balance can be maintained no matter what the tuner weighs, or how forward the weight is placed. Also, the low pressure and level of disturbance of a rimfire rifle as it is fired allows the use of slimmer (then for CF applications) that reduce weight needed to accomplish the desired node placement. It may be that the weight limits of 1,000 yard rifles allow tuners of sufficient weight to move nodes to muzzles, even with the larger diameter barrels that seem to be required. This is speculation on my part, BUT with the weight limits that are in place in the short range classes, particularly sporter and light varmint, the minimum barrel diameters that are consistent with good accuracy. and the need to have good rifle balance, I seriously doubt that a configuration can be developed that places the node at the muzzle. What this means is that discussions about how tuners for these applications work and should be adjusted need to recognize this difference. Yes, this is only one shooter's OPINION, I make no claim of proof, but I have seen nothing that disproves it, and quite a bit that seems to be consistent with it. Claims that CF tuners (for the specified applications) work like rimfire tuners seems to me to be incorrect, and have not. to my knowledge been proven by the construction of any rifle that proves their correctness, again, for the specified application. I bring this up because this thread is about how to adjust a tuner that was developed and is used for 10,5#, short range CF rifles, not rimfire, or thousand yard rifles. If we would specify the application at the beginning of a discussion (as was the case for this thread) and save long range, and rimfire "truths" for threads about those applications, I think that there would be less heat created, and more light shed.
 
Lynn,

Yes, I have shot against you, and your father, at the 600/1000yd natl, not successfully tho! And, I have harassed you a bit on this forum as well!
I spent my time at Siliconix, Signetics, Cal-Tex, Astec, GEC-Plessey and was one of the founders of Integrated Power Semiconductors in Scotland. Finished up my career with 10 Years as the California design center for all things IC for Etymotic Research in Illinois.

But, I still think the mystics of the tuner have been proven. Also that a tuner does not make a poorly tuned gun/load shoot better, just allows one to slightly alter the tune for coincidence at different ranges.

Norm
 
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Norm
Get in touch with me this year at the Nationals and I'll give you the skinny on why Calfee wants the node at the muzzle for repeatability.

Boyd
On a 1.450 heavygun in longrange one needs a tuner just over 3 pounds if he has 22-23 inches of barrel hanging past the bedding on his barrel block typical of a 30-34 inch barrel.
I suppose Vibe can cypher the math and see what that will do for a shortrange barrel.
On the rimfire guns running thin barrels at 0.820 straight cylinder the Harrels tuners generaly weigh more than the tuners do on the shortrange 6ppc guns.

On 600/1000 yard lightguns with 0.930 muzzle diameter at 28-30 inches 11-13 ounces will move the node to the muzzle.

I don't see any problems making weight at 13.5 pounds.

10.5 pounds seems to be the achilles heel but if you do the math 4-5 ounces behind the muzzle like on a Beggs tuner is not much when compared to 5-6 ounces out in front 2 inches like Jackie and Gene are using.In short maybe going with a longer tuner body like pictured above is the answer? You get way more leverage with the longer lengths without a lot of extra weight.
Lynn
 
Lynn,
A lot of good information....It seems that the longer and slimmer the barrel, the lighter the tuner that you can get away with.

If I remember one of Calfee's old PS articles, he said something to the effect that (on a rimfire) you locate the node on the bare barrel, figure out the weight of the barrel from that point to the muzzle, and build a tuner that weighs that amount, that extends a similar distance in front of the muzzle. (My memory is imperfect, so feel free to correct me.)It seems to me that this is very much as if you bored the barrel back from the muzzle until the crown and the last node were at the same point. I will have to get out my sporter and do some tapping to seen if I can find the node nearest the muzzle, and then do a little math. All I am saying is that until proved otherwise that the current state of tuners for these rifles is significantly different than for rimfire, and evidently long range. I think that all that is being done is to broaden the tuning node, and or make adjustments to tune out vertical. Loading between matches leaves a lot of options....that seem to be working.
Boyd
Boyd
 
Boyd Allen said:
I think that the discussion of tuners has largely ignored a couple of things. Rimfire tuners on unlimited rifles(no weight limit) may be configured so as to move a node to the muzzle because of a lack of rifle weight limit, so that balance can be maintained no matter what the tuner weighs, or how forward the weight is placed. Also, the low pressure and level of disturbance of a rimfire rifle as it is fired allows the use of slimmer (then for CF applications) that reduce weight needed to accomplish the desired node placement. It may be that the weight limits of 1,000 yard rifles allow tuners of sufficient weight to move nodes to muzzles, even with the larger diameter barrels that seem to be required. This is speculation on my part, BUT with the weight limits that are in place in the short range classes, particularly sporter and light varmint, the minimum barrel diameters that are consistent with good accuracy. and the need to have good rifle balance, I seriously doubt that a configuration can be developed that places the node at the muzzle. What this means is that discussions about how tuners for these applications work and should be adjusted need to recognize this difference. Yes, this is only one shooter's OPINION, I make no claim of proof, but I have seen nothing that disproves it, and quite a bit that seems to be consistent with it. Claims that CF tuners (for the specified applications) work like rimfire tuners seems to me to be incorrect, and have not. to my knowledge been proven by the construction of any rifle that proves their correctness, again, for the specified application. I bring this up because this thread is about how to adjust a tuner that was developed and is used for 10,5#, short range CF rifles, not rimfire, or thousand yard rifles. If we would specify the application at the beginning of a discussion (as was the case for this thread) and save long range, and rimfire "truths" for threads about those applications, I think that there would be less heat created, and more light shed.
Click to expand...

Boyd these truths you speak of are a result of long hard hours shooting and testing .And these truths are intended to get you on the right track and are completely relevent to a ppc 10 pound rifle . It works exactly the same as ANY other bolt action rifle rimfire or centerfire short or long. A tuner is shifting the balance of the rifle as well as timing the muzzle swing to tune the rifle.Nothing to do with a node . Shooting by keyboard can only take you so far and you have speculated for years in which hey I like to talk about it too but there comes a time when you are going to have to just get out try do it to prove it to yourself, I double dare you .[lol]Everything is right here on benchrest central to tune ,So come on boyd get out get some trigger time and try this stuff,I promise you will be amazed by what you will find.

Tim Tx
 
Lynn said:
View attachment 12303


10.5 pounds seems to be the achilles heel but if you do the math 4-5 ounces behind the muzzle like on a Beggs tuner is not much when compared to 5-6 ounces out in front 2 inches like Jackie and Gene are using.In short maybe going with a longer tuner body like pictured above is the answer? You get way more leverage with the longer lengths without a lot of extra weight.
Lynn
Click to expand...

Complications, always complications. One problem with a long slim tuner is that the POI will move quite a bit more on an adjustment than a shorter tuner design.
 
Tim...buddy...I have three different tuners that are fitted to barrels for my PPC (10.5 lbs), and have worked with them all. Before you start throwing around insults, perhaps you should get your facts straight. What I was trying to say is that we are not playing the same game with tuners that rimfire guys do, specifically, we are not doing the whole barrel vibration node at the muzzle thing, primarily because of the limitations of the weight rule, the need for rifle balance, and the barrel weight needed because of the differences in heat, recoil and pressure that are inherent in CF. Some years back I was lucky enough to talk Jackie into making me a tuner, well before they were in their current configuration, had it fitted to a barrel, shot it in a match, and won one match at 200 with it. I have not shot a match in several years because of health issues, but I still manage to make it to the range with the full kit, and very much enjoy shooting and experimenting. Shooting and posting on the internet and shooting do not have to be mutually exclusive. Next time you call someone a keyboard shooter, you might want to check your information. BTW back in the day, when I was doing equipment articles for Shooters News, I put Lou Murdica and Lynwood Harrel together for what became an extensive series of tests of the tuners that Lynwood was making for rimfire on Some of Lou's short range benchrest rifles. I believe that it was at the nationals just after those test were started that Lou shot his heavy with a tuner, which he told me improved its performance.
Boyd
 
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Jerry
I am using 2.75 inches right now for the tuners length not the weights length and it is working very well on a heavy varmint taper of 28-30 inches.
How much weight do you guys have to play with on a state of the art lightgun? Scoville stock,BAT action,Light Varmint barrel,Leupold or March scope.
Lynn
 
Boyd , No No No It was not meant as a insult only to get you to get out and shoot and try it and to enjoy ,it was a poor choice of wording .I do apologize . By shooting by keybord I meant talking about it here instead of shooting and proving your thoughts on target in particular with tuners.And who says you have to add weight to tune with a stopped muzzle or positive compensation?

Tim in Tx
 
Don't sweat it. I went out last Monday to the Visalia range and spent about 6 hrs., playing with a copy of a Dwight Scott tuner. I have a key to the range, because I do my three days a year as a volunteer RSO. My knees are finally back to "normal" today. We agree completely about tuners for CF short range benchrest. For this, we are simply changing the barrel's swing frequency to allow the bullets to exit at a more advantageous position its cycle. They work.
 
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Tim In Texas
Tim if you add a tensioning tube to your rifle you essentially put the node at the muzzle.If one looks at how well the tensioned barrels are shooting one can easily see why some prefer the muzzle at a node.
Is it required - no - does it help? some think so.
Lynn
 
Lynn ,What I am saying is this ,with a recessed crown barrel which could be rung on a consistant basis without deadening caused by a threaded joint,I tried this dead spot or node at the muzzle ,in front of the muzzle and behind the muzzle for almost a whole year , at 100yds and 1000yds .I really wanted to make this work so I stayed with it untill I had an accurate conclusion and posted that conclusion on this forum. When this vibrational node is in front of the muzzle you will get huge drops at 100yds and 1000yds with a slighly lower velocity only because the barrel pointed it there,when this same node is at the crown and behind the muzzle up to1.5 inches you will get drops that equal the calculated drop of the velocity at the target.But the tune was litterally about 2-3 degrees wide,I could watvch it go out of tune litteraly by the minute at 100yds and 1000yds. Even as the node was moved back futher in small increments the tune remained very narrow and still showed calculated vertical at any yardage. .in rimfire .200 is considered to be little to no vertical ,not so in centerfire as we all know.When the dead spot is at 2 inches behind the crown the bullet converge at 100yds ,but still show vertical at 1000yds .When the dead spot is well behind the crown [2.25inches] we get a slower round hitting higher at 100yds and no vertical at 1000yds.When you have calfee tune it is exactly the same tune as a standard muzzled rifle whether it is rimfire or centerfire,but in all of this mess ,if you have really level velocites the rifle will shoot like it is in tune at any setting and distance but if you dont have level velocities there is vertical porportionate to the differences of velocites providing you are not in the bad spot of exit timing[ high frequency This node we feel and hear in the barrel 6 inches back from the muzzle and are so worried about getting it to the muzzle is only there after the bullet lets go of it,so in a physics stand point it cannot influence the bullets flight .There is a fundimental motion on every rifle that is common in barrel motions with tuners and what most shooters do not realize is that this is so universal that all the tune techiques discussed in the recent threads and older threads can be used very well and with good accuracy adjusted or not .I hope everybody will just get out and shoot and try this stuff .You will have a blast.

Tim in Tx
 
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Tim,
So... as long as the tuner puts the node around 2" back from the muzzle, it can be adjusted to minimize vertical due to velocity variations within a group, and the tuning node width will be maximized as compared to other barrel vibration node positions? I am just trying to get a handle on what you have written. Please correct my misunderstanding(s).
Boyd
 
Boyd , you understand it perfectly .although the dead spot is more coincidence then anything else but yes if you use this dead spot for a very rough reference of adjustment point in which you should see 45-60fps hitting the same height at the target. But It is really more about weight in front of the crown more then anything else , if the diameter is smaller then my barrels then the same weight would need to be more forward slightly . If you shoot a 6 mm around 5 ounces in front of the muzzle is what you need to get a wide tune at 100yds and 1000yds if need be if you are shooting a 30 cal regardless of case design or rifle length,contour ,etc. then 10 ounces in front of the muzzle will be what you need to do the same thing .That will get you in the ballpark . If you think your out of tune dont shoot a group , shoot 2 differing loads at 1 grain apart and see if the vertical is still gone ,if it is then go back to one load and have fun and watch it shoot little buggholes.high sensitivity is not a bad thing it just shows you are closer to not adjusting it at all.

Tm in Tx
 
Tim,
Putting 6oz. in front of the muzzle would be touch and go with my rifle (10.5#) and it only has a B&L 36. I could do it, but I think that by doing so I would give up the option of shooting free recoil because of balance problems. What was your barrel weight?
Boyd
 
Boyd ,My rifles at present weigh from 15-55lbs,but in your case the crown could be recessed and then slip on a light adjustable weight to keep your balance and weight at bay.It would be a tough desicion to start drilling the crown down in to the barrel but it would be worth it to gain a wider tune.

Tim in Tx
 
Tim
I don't like the recessed crowns even though they work.I think Henry Childs used a recessed crown and shot a very small group with it at the nationals back when he was posting here.

When my guns are shooting small at 100 they are not shooting small at 600.When they are shooting small at 600 they are not shooting small at 1,000.
Lynn
 
My barrels are around 20.5". I don't think that I want to give up any more bore length. You make the point that I wrote of earlier in this thread, for 10.5# PPCs the viable tuner options are significantly different than they are for rimfire or heavier CF rifles.
 
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