Butch Lambert
Active member
I have 9 and could use more. I haven't figured out how one turning tool or boring bar will do all my work. What about my Knurler, parting tool, and others?
R
retired
Guest
and if you have a small hole boring tool..it is too small for a med or bigger hole...too flexible.
basic tools are right and left cut, that doubles most numbers.
basic tools are right and left cut, that doubles most numbers.
Butch Lambert
Active member
Yes sir, but we may have LEFT handers on here only.
Rubicon Prec.
New member
I wasn't putting anyone down, I was asking a question.
R
retired
Guest
Naw...you clearly made a statement on how you did things.
a question would not need a statement on how you did things.
a question would not need a statement on how you did things.
Rubicon Prec.
New member
Well, how's this for a question: how do you use eight tool holders to fit a barrel?
Sooo, I probably have more like 15 just for chambering because I do Panda's differently than Rem700 or flat-backed Atlas/Savage types....but I'll try do a Rem700 in my head. (I may get some steps out of order...)
First of all, I consider some things vitally important, that NO ONE ELSE cares about
For instance timing or indexing to certain clock positions within just a few degrees, and using aftermarket recoil lugs that are as close to interference fit as is humanly possible. (I've thought about heat-setting them, but never have..... now THAT would be a pita BUT....again. I'm not typical NOR sane in my methods)First bit, carbide to hog off the tenon and whack to within a few thou of depth/length. Rough-in
Second bit, sharp HSS....I sneak up on tenon diameter veeerry slowly, I want that recoil lug to be pressed on.
At this point I'll probably th'ow another parallel cutter on to turn the threaded portion a little smaller than the recoil lug seat. But I won't count that one.
Third is a threading bit and I use a chickenout groove so,
Fourth is a little cleanup bit for making the groove look perty...
Fifth a 50-ish degree bit marked "NOT FOR THREADING!" It looks like a 1/2X1/2 threading bit, this is my indexing bit for cutting a perfect, square-cornered seat. With this bit I sneak up to my index point.
Sixth I trim the tenon to length after indexing and for this use a HSS bit kinda' like my crowning grind...... but I may well throw a carbide on if I need to hogg some length off. Basically if timing makes more than .005-.010 I'll hog it then trim to final with HSS
Seventh is a 85* boring bar I use to cut in the boltface recess.
Eighth is my chamber boring bar
And then I may well use 3 or 4 more chamfering/edge softening grinds to knock off all the corners......
And I prolly missed a step or two.
MilGunsmith
Member
Need to ad the facing cutter and a crown cutter for the muzzle end too. Plus all the other cutters for other jobs. I probably have 20 different holder setups, including one for an indicator.
Butch Lambert
Active member
He wouldn't understand.
Rubicon Prec.
New member
I understand that I can fit a barrel just fine on a manual lathe using only three tool holders and haven't found the need for more. That's not to say I don't have a bunch of holders for work other than barrel fitting, but if you are just getting started and your goal is fitting barrels, you can certainly get by with three or four because you should have a parting tool on hand.
Dude, I can get by with ONE, I did for a while........ and now I have 35+......... because "getting by" is what my forebears did.
I prefer to excel, exceed and overcome.
ALL while thoroughly enjoying the ride.
hooaahhhhhh
OOHH, and "fitting a barrel" isn't what I do. Every hacker with a lathe can "fit a barrel" and make it go boom, safely. Every hacker on God's Earth can get the headspace to hit between the gages too, some even brag "they're barely over the GO Gage, "just let the hannle drop, OOOHHH Perfect!"".....Every hacker can even fit a pump to it and make up a high-speed low-drag liquid coolant system so's they can charge more for their "professionalism".... but I can count on one hand the number of people I've met that can make 5 identical chambers back to back. Or that can make up a system which allows 50 reloads on the same brass. I just threw a barrel on one of my 6MMs and went out and shot it with 3-yr-old Match loads from another gun. Cases that had already been fired through 20 rotations. And have a third barrel in the lathe, a new Kreiger that just arrived so I'll have 3 barrels, re-using those same 40 cases.... which have never been trimmed other than initially being cut to length.
If you claim can accomplish that with 3 bits, I'll need as detailed an explanation as I've given to believe it.
You certainly CANNOT do it using a floating reamer holder on a barrel spun up between centers, I don't care HOW many toolholders you use.....
Ohhh, and I just remembered..... I saw most of my barrels off in the bandsaw
don't really need a parting bit..... (but I got 6 LOL)Rubicon Prec.
New member
You’re taking this all wrong. I am not criticizing your method at all. Your explanation helps the OP know what is nice to have. I feel mine helps them know what they need to have at a minimum. I am sorry if I came off that way as criticizing.
That said, quantity of QCT holders has nothing to do with final headspace tolerance/repeatability, how many times brass can be reused, or barrel to barrel interchangeability. Nor would using more than three QCT holders inherently make a rifle more accurate. I use more than three currently because: 1) I don’t have a tailstock and 2) cosmetic reasons.
When starting out “fitting barrels”, you NEED to be able to face, turn, undercut a shoulder (unless your recoil lug/action face has sufficient chamfer), thread, drill, bore, and drive a reamer. Drilling and driving a reamer on a manual lathe is easier with a tailstock, in my personal opinion, but opinions vary. Light cleanup facing, turning, chamfering, and an undercut at the tenon/shoulder junction can all easily be accomplished with a VBMT (as well as a runout groove, if so desired). It only takes one holder to thread a tenon. A single solid carbide boring bar will work for opening up and chamfering the counterbore/cone. That same boring bar can be used to break the leading edge of the threads by running the spindle in reverse and having the tool on the back of the part. It can also be used to prebore the chamber deep enough to allow the pilot to still make initial purchase in the bore, if that’s your preferred method. If you want to bore the chamber to near full depth, that’s probably best for another longer bar and another holder.
Again, there’s lots of ways to fit/chamber a barrel. One should figure out what way they feel is best, then tool up for that. “Needs” will certainly vary by method.
I'd be willing to bet with my current method, 5-10 chambers cut back to back would have headspaces deviation that measure in the tenths.
That said, quantity of QCT holders has nothing to do with final headspace tolerance/repeatability, how many times brass can be reused, or barrel to barrel interchangeability. Nor would using more than three QCT holders inherently make a rifle more accurate. I use more than three currently because: 1) I don’t have a tailstock and 2) cosmetic reasons.
When starting out “fitting barrels”, you NEED to be able to face, turn, undercut a shoulder (unless your recoil lug/action face has sufficient chamfer), thread, drill, bore, and drive a reamer. Drilling and driving a reamer on a manual lathe is easier with a tailstock, in my personal opinion, but opinions vary. Light cleanup facing, turning, chamfering, and an undercut at the tenon/shoulder junction can all easily be accomplished with a VBMT (as well as a runout groove, if so desired). It only takes one holder to thread a tenon. A single solid carbide boring bar will work for opening up and chamfering the counterbore/cone. That same boring bar can be used to break the leading edge of the threads by running the spindle in reverse and having the tool on the back of the part. It can also be used to prebore the chamber deep enough to allow the pilot to still make initial purchase in the bore, if that’s your preferred method. If you want to bore the chamber to near full depth, that’s probably best for another longer bar and another holder.
Again, there’s lots of ways to fit/chamber a barrel. One should figure out what way they feel is best, then tool up for that. “Needs” will certainly vary by method.
I'd be willing to bet with my current method, 5-10 chambers cut back to back would have headspaces deviation that measure in the tenths.
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R
retired
Guest
Please forgive?
Yes, I did take the wrong slant...... I was still on "work mode" (concrete construction) with 2 busted trucks and a guy shorting me 4 grand within the last half of my day and I let it get me crabby. Came on to wind down,
and wasn't.
I really do apologize.
And you are right.
That said, IMO it's CHEAPER to have a few more...... the first big problem I ran into when using ONE square half-by-half toolholder (I actually got a 'kit' with 5 or 6 blocks but some of them were knurling. cutoff (which didn't work very well) and round hole boring bar holders) so I had one 1/2X1/2 and one 1/2X1/2 with a milled groove. SO I HAD TWO
And IT DID affect my work because one of the hardest things to learn is proper attack angles/rakes/reliefs/heights/grinds so I spent ooodles of time fiddle-farting around. I buggered a lot of threads, got a lot of facing cuts fading from shiney to not...... and even broke some carbide tooling trying to adjust it. (You just TOUCH a high-rake bit to the work and hand-turn backwards a scosche and pop, the tip is gone) and you don't know it until the next pass...... which looks like a bear turd......And it's probably work-hardened.
I spent money on "angle finders" and a height gage, and some TDC and edge-finding levels.... all because getting tooling BACK into shape while constantly changing out bits is freaky-hard.
And, once I really got into repeatable tolerance work it became MORE cost-effective. One under-sized tenon cut, one time of screwing up the shoulder set-back when trying to time in another couple degrees, one time of the two-use boring bar throwing chatter into my chamber cut (I now use two completely different boring approaches for inside the chamber VS cutting the bolt relief)
For me, the method used has a HUGE effect on accuracy. Namely on barrel-to-barrel accuracy. Barrels wear out like tires, much too quickly. and being able to make another chamber exactly the same is hugely important to me. I bought a lathe JUST because of this, (It Ain't ABOUT Headspace..... headspace is easy) I bought a lathe ONLY because of a guy named Gordy Gritters and another guy who invented the pusher concept. I saw those two ideas and said "BOOM! THERE's my answer!"
And it is.
But for me, to make it work FOR ME, it's simpler and CHEAPER to keep a tool setup once I've found the magic..... and for me, while I can easily make chambers that headspace the same with nearly any tooling setup THE ONLY way I can duplicate chambers is with at least 3-4 dedicated tooling holders..... and then it's simply convenience and speed for the cleanup tooling.
Also, since pre-boring is simply a fact of my chambering existence I find that I need 3 different boring setups for #1- PPC/BR stuff. #2-middle-sized stuff and #3-long and fat 338 Lapua/Jeffery stuff. I haven't done a BMG yet but I think my big Lapua bar will suffice. And I couldn't even do a 223..... except to just run the reamer in and cut it that way, do a one-off.
AND...... I always do my final pre-bore cuts with HSS to keep the surface open and receptive to the reamer so I've either got to spend a lot of time on my rough-in pre-boring or I need both a carbide cutter and a HSS cutter even for pre-boring.
I guess for me, the reason to do my own is to be able to set my standards such that I can not only get easier tunability/better accuracy but so that I can do it AGAIN. And again. Because brass costs money. And fireforming and making new cases costs lots of money. and fitted reloading dies cost lots of money and it SUUCKKKS to have to buy a fitted sizer for each chamber.
I guess what I'm trying to say is....... for me, more toolholders isn't a luxury, it's a money-saver!
wheewwww....
ramble OFF!
LOL
al
Butch Lambert
Active member
In spite of all this posting, I didn't see the OP saying for chambering only. My chambering holders are one for facing and turning the tenon, one for threading, one for a boring bar, and another for crowning. The others are for various other things. I never part off a barrel. That's what saws are for.
R
retired
Guest
Mike Bryant
Active member
The main ones that I use are:
1. A holder with a cut off tool.
2. One with a right hand turning tool for turning a tenon to the shoulder.
3. A holder with a threading tool
4. And an Aloris 5C collet holder for holding a 1/4" boring bar or other small diameter boring bar by changing collets and size of boring bar.
I have some others with larger boring bars and other miscellaneous holders, but those 4 are what I use all the time.
I gotta' ask..... HOW do you guys do it, the one single tool to face and set the tenon/shoulder???
I've got a barrel for a Panda in the lathe right now and that corner at the shoulder has about a 00.00001 relief radius. I'm using a tool looks like a knife blade tip to get in and clean up for a solid seat and I have nothing in carbide that's even CLOSE to a tight enough radius. And the typical surface ground recoil lugs from PTG are also often basically knife-edged at the corners....
I've got a barrel for a Panda in the lathe right now and that corner at the shoulder has about a 00.00001 relief radius. I'm using a tool looks like a knife blade tip to get in and clean up for a solid seat and I have nothing in carbide that's even CLOSE to a tight enough radius. And the typical surface ground recoil lugs from PTG are also often basically knife-edged at the corners....