Holbrook Results 12/5/09 AGBR INDOOR Pictures

P

Paul Bendix

Guest
Another Raining Windy Snowy Bench Rest Match GLAD it was indoors!!!
We had 10 shooters and with the added bench had only 2 relays.
Mitch Hill was on top of his game Winning Target 1 with the only 250 9X I think with the FX ROYAL (He had 3 or 4 guns)
Ray Hill came in second with a 248 5X I think using Al Joly's New FX Royal.
Al Joly came in third with his New FX with a 248 1X (AL shoots left handed and had to bury his face on the right handed stock)

Mitch also won target two with another 250 6X. Al came in second 249 6X and Doug Shea came in third 248 6X

Doug Shea took target 3 with a 250 6X, I (Paul Bendix)changed to my .22 rapid and came in second with a 250 4X, Al Joly took third with a 249 6X

Mitch Hill took the agg with 748 25X
Al Joly second 746 13X
Doug Shea Third 745 16X

Bill Harmon won the Match Class. He also won the Springer Class as his CO2 match gun failed. The last two targets he shot his springer R9 ?

After the AGBR match we shot one IR 50/50 target.
Doug came in first 250 22X
Ray Hill second 249 19X FM 11 (my .22 Rapid)
Al Joly third 249 19X FM 4(went to the first miss tie breaker)

Mitch Hill, Ray Hill (no relation both great shots)Bill Harmon,Frank Monroe,Al Joly Waiting for the next relay.
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Al Joly, Mitch Hill, Norm Lieber, Doug Shea, Ray Hill, Frank Monroe (not shooting)
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Norm Lieber, Mark Normandy, Al Joly
Norm shooting off of one piece rest Ray Hill made.

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Ray Hill shooting Mitch Hills RX Royal and rest
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Hope to see you in Jan for the next indoor match, Not Pictured David Shattuck, Doug Shea and Paul Bendix if you want I have file footage of all three.

Paul
 
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What a competition! Best Indoor match yet I'd say. But, there needs to be one shooter especially acknowledged over everyone else:

Congratulations to Mith Hill. Man, was he smok'n hot!!!! :eek::eek::eek: First, as Paul noted Mitch walked away with target numbers one and two. But, then he damn close beat out Doug Shea's recently set record on 750-21X for an agg. by shooting a 748-25X agg., and only missing the Indoor record toward the end of the last target when we all heard this massive sigh as a shot sailed away on him (I'm not sure which target numder it was that bit him, but it was close to the end).

I also want to shout out a big Congrats to Doug Shea for showing us all just how to shoot an IR50/50 target by finishing with a 250-22X score. WOW! And that following his 2500 ARA score of last month.

It was great having all the others, both new and old, join us as when the numbers are up there, it always makes a match more fun, and there were some mighty impressive scores across the board from everybody. I can't wait to see what Al Joly will do once he gets his FX settled into a tried and true bench style stock ...that's built for a leftie. He's going to be super tough to beat. And then there's Ray Hill who was putting on his own show by using his recently home-built, 50# one-piece rest. Seemed to work okay from what I saw.

Hope to see everyone again in January. And Paul, yes you should probably consider adding one more bench.

Dave Shattuck
 
Thanks Dave!

I agree, that was the best match yet, its great to see the people show up as they have been doing recently...

My thanks to both You and Paul for your calm cool while running the matches, its great fun and my thanks to Doug for his open sharing of his knowledge of airguns and what makes them tick...

And that was bullseye #22 on the third target that had the fateful flier! Oh well, next time...

And Paul, I think the yellow certificates are a great touch, they are a perfect award...

And my thanks to everyone for showing up, you are a great group of folks to spend an afternoon with...

Happy Shooting Y'all...
Mitch & Shadow...
 
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These Guys Are Good

Mitch, 1 more coat of oil on that new BR stock for the FX and a 750 is assured, also thank you for the generous loan of not 1 but 2 guns! Doug, That is some shooting machine you've built, awesome. Al for a completely stock gun, it's scary to think of the potential. Paul, our most generous Match Director and Host, Thank you very much for your hard work and enthusiasm it certainly is contagious. Dave, Norm and the rest of the competitors it is always a treat to spend some airtime with you gents. See you all in Jan. In the mean time Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!:D:D:D

Mark
 
I think we had an excellent match for sure , everyone shot well it was nip and tuck all the way. excellent shooting everyone.
I hope everyone returns for our next match this could be one very competitive season for sure and special thanks to Paul Bendix for not only running the matches and scoring plus shooting and prep work but also for making the excellent benches we shoot off of at the indoor range and outdoor range..nice work Paul. I would also like to thank Dave Shattuck for his help with the scoring along with any and all questions about the rules or scoring , if you have a question Dave can answer it.
Another good match at Holbrook is in the history books..good shooting everyone.

Doug
 
Thanks for the nice compliments on running the matches. I enjoy running them because of all the help I get from every one. I am impressed with how the scores keep climbing. I was pleased with how the fifth bench worked out and today I started the sixth bench. I wish the second range was 75 feet as will have maxed out with 6 benches. It was nice only having two relays instead of three. Now we can have 18 shooters with three relays. It would be a pain to move a bench to post targets so will leave a station open to get to the targets.
See you next year.

Paul
 
Fair Warning

Just want you all to know that my girlfriend, Maryellen, gave me a Daisy "Red Ryder" Carbine for Christmas. I'm gonna start practicing, and "triple-dog-dare" y'all, so watch out.

Of course when I opened it in front of her entire family there was a chorus of, "You'll shoot your eye out kid!" (ref: the movie "A Christmas Story")

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all.

Best,

Michael
 
Gees Mike, you didn't think we'd know where that quote came from? If you hadn't thrown it in I in fact would have.

Now comes the BIG question: Are you serious about having gotten a Red Rider? Cause wouldn't that be kind of a tease? Or is she just telling you to go ahead and join in on the fun?

Happy New Year,

Dave
 
Buddy bottles

I notice from the photo's, the rifles employed are the Rapid/Royale/Air Wolf/Ranger type, with large buddy bottles.
Is that because you have a high muzzle energy/air usage per shot?
If so, what is the average fpe and how many shots would a shooter expect from a bottle?
Are the majority of rifles used .22(5,5mm)?
If shooting .177(4.5mm), would high velocities be expected to have an adverse effect on pellet stability and would using less power/heavier pellets be employed to counteract this?
I notice some use a front rest and rear bag, some a one piece rest and no bags. Are shooters free to employ any type of rest they choose?
Are your matches predominantly held indoors?
With regard to the above, I assume an S400 type rifle wouldn't be suitable for use in an outdoor match, as the number of sighters required would deplete the reservoir to the point of requiring a refill during the detail.
Sorry for the questions, i'd just like to get appreciation of airgun bench-rest from an other side of the pond perspective and hope you indulge me.
:)
Happy New Year.
Gary.
 
Hi Gary,

let me start the replies by answering a few of your questions and hopefully, a few of the others will add their replies and set me straight where needed.

First off, its not all front bottle guns that are used in our matches, there are a number of other types, the S400 series and the USFT guns however, lately, with the new side lever very accurate FX Royale appearing on the scene, and that the Theoben Rapid type guns being available from airgun tuners and as accurate as they are, we are seeing more of the front bottle type guns being used in the matches.

As to the larger quantity of air and power from a front bottle gun being a consideration, its my opinion that its more that the FX/Theoben Rapid/Airwolf guns have a proven capability for accuracy in our matches. In comparison as far as air capacity is concerned, the AA S400 series guns with the tube type reservoir (my S400SL-XTRA FAC is 315cc), has more than adequate air to complete a 25 roundel target with enough air to include a half dozen sighter shots and still be on the optimum curve. Most of the guns shooting accurately enough to score well have the power/velocity adjusted downward slightly as part of the tuning process to attain the accuracy required. For example, my S400SL-XTRA is set to 800 fps with .22 caliber 18gn JSB pellets and my FX is set down to 900 fps for the same pellets... This is only a reduction of a few percent and is done more to achieve a flatter pressure curve and improve consistency of accuracy than for any other reason. It should also be noted that this adjustment in power/velocity is done on an individual basis for each gun based on accuracy performance usually while shooting across a chronograph and has little to do with the volume of air used.

Therefore it is my opinion that the choice of a front bottle type gun over a tube reservoir type gun has very little to do with the capacity of the reservoir used as from what I have seen, all types seem to be adequate for a 25 roundel target.

I also realize that there would seem to be a discrepancy between the models of airguns we shoot as compared to the models in Great Britain or Europe based on power restrictions you folks have to deal with. We here in the USA do not have power restrictions and most all air guns imported here are FAC type guns. Case in point is the AA S400 vs AA S500 series guns...

As to answering your question as to a specific number of shots, I can only say that with my S400MPR-FT in .177 caliber, I get about a 25 BAR pressure drop for 30-35 shots. With my S400SL-XTRA FAC in .22 caliber at full power, I see about a 50 BAR pressure drop for the same number of shots. As to shooting to find the maximum number of shots, I have not done this and recorded what the maximum shot count is so can not say for sure but when testing have been able to shoot two 25 roundel targets and begin to see it fall off the curve on the last few roundels so I would guess its probably about 50-60 shots for each gun. Bear in mind the AA S400MPR FT has a 280cc reservoir as compared to the S400SL-XTRA at 315cc and the FX Royale at 400cc... The end result is that there is plenty of air in each gun to shoot a 25 roundel target as it works out...

And then, to complicate the matter further, we are allowed to stop in the middle of the relay, remove the gun from the firing line, refill the gun, and return to finish the target if needed as long as we finish within the 20 minute time period of the match relay...

Edited to add: This past season I would say the .22 caliber guns seem to be becoming predominant in the Holbrook matches as they seem to shoot best whether its indoor or outdoor. Most of us have good guns in both .177 caliber and .22 caliber, and speaking for myself, I find the .22 caliber guns shoot more consistently as far as accuracy is concerned. This may be due to .22 caliber pellets having a better BC but I've not spent the time to determine this for a fact for myself.

You asked: "If shooting .177(4.5mm), would high velocities be expected to have an adverse effect on pellet stability and would using less power/heavier pellets be employed to counteract this?"

I'm not sure I have enough experience with .177 pellet guns to give you a correct answer however it is my opinion that this is true. With my S400SL-XTRA FAC in .177 caliber it would seem the heavier a type of pellet is, the more consistently accurate the gun shoots. However this gun is new to me and I do not have enough experience with it at this point to give you a good answer. I do find this to be true of all my high power airguns in any caliber though.

As to rests, its a shooters choice. Some use a front rest and a rear bag and others prefer a one piece rest. There are no restrictions that I know of, I believe the rules are that a rest can not be attached to the bench and a gun must be able to be lifted up out of the rest freely. No "return to battery" type rests are allowed. I believe the rules are patterned after the RBA Unlimited class rules as far as the use of rests are concerned.

I will add this comment, one of the shooters in our local area matches has set and probably holds more national airgun benchrest records than anyone I am aware of, and he prefers a front rest / rear bag rest setup. I am a user of a one piece rest although I have both types, and I think the only advantage to the one piece rest is the simplicity of maneuvering the rest across the target. It is much easier to use a one piece rest efficiently than a two piece setup however I do not see any direct effect or benifit on accuracy as compared to the two piece setup.

You asked: "Are your matches predominantly held indoors?"

No, we also hold outdoor AGBR matches by the same rules and format as the indoor matches, however the seasons and climate here in the North East of the USA make it impractical to hold outdoor matches from November until late April. Indoor matches can be held year around and during April to November, at the Holbrook club, indoor matches as well as outdoor matches are held two weeks apart.


You asked: "With regard to the above, I assume an S400 type rifle wouldn't be suitable for use in an outdoor match, as the number of sighters required would deplete the reservoir to the point of requiring a refill during the detail."

Actually, the S400SL-XTRA holds enough air to shoot a 25 roundel target at high power allowing for a half dozen sighters in an outdoor match. This past year I shot my S400SL-XTRA .22 caliber in the outdoor matches with no difficulties with air capacity and in the June outdoor match, I won two of the three targets with it. I would have won the match except I made a stupid mistake and double shot one roundel missing the one next to it. That cost me 21 points and I missed winning the match by 8 points in aggregate score. Talk about feeling embarrassed!!!

You wrote: "Sorry for the questions, i'd just like to get appreciation of airgun bench-rest from an other side of the pond perspective and hope you indulge me."

Not a problem, I think I can speak for everyone over here and say that sharing our methods and ways is beneficial for all of us, your questions are most welcome and I hope my response helps provide some insight...

Gary, Have a Happy and Healthy New Year!

Happy Shooting,
Mitch & Shadow...
 
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Happy New Year to everyone!

I'm trying to make a long story very short... The "problem" of shooting accurately with airgun (velocitywise) as I understand it, is to to get as flat trajectory of pellet as possible, which means shooting as fast as possible ... But on the other hand, one should shoot below the problems of "transonic zone" (causing pellet wobbling), and that means shooting velocities below 1000 fps.

I believe that this is the "problem" of velocity in accurate airgun shooting, regardless of caliber (4,5 - 6,35mm).
 
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Your concept of "the probem"

Does not really apply to the indoor matches being described. There is no particular reason a 700fps rifle/ammo combo that is well matched will not shoot as acurately as one at 900fps, since wind isnt really an issue.

Flat trajectory really hasnt much to do with accuracy at short range, since all well-matched pellets leaving a good gun will have very similar drop. This is evident in seeing groups with a large number of shots ... a decent thirty or fifty shot benched group will usually be about as wide as it is tall, showing no really strong penchant for vertical dispersion compared to horizontal.

Its much longer range is introduced that the typically small velocity variations these guns exhibit begins to have a more serious effect on vertical dispersion. The effect of wind, however, is much greater, and could have as large an effect at ten yards as normal velocity variations do at 75 or more yards.
 
sepeteus said:
I'm trying to make a long story very short... The "problem" of shooting accurately with airgun (velocitywise) as I understand it, is to to get as flat trajectory of pellet as possible, which means shooting as fast as possible ... But on the other hand, one should shoot below the problems of "transonic zone" (causing pellet wobbling), and that means shooting velocities below 1000 fps.

I believe that this is the "problem" of velocity in accurate airgun shooting, regardless of caliber (4,5 - 6,35mm).
Click to expand...

sepeteus, I beg to differ. In the August 2009 issue of Airgun World magazine Tim Finley addresses this very thoughtline in detail on pages 33 through 35 in his article entitled How NOT to be a better shot. In it he speaks of how it is better to run at a slightly lesser speed than at or near the maximums as he says you will find very little difference accuracywise between the maximum and a lesser setting.

We all know that those of you who live in the U.K. have to deal with that dastardly 12 foot pound limit, and that no shooter in his right mind wants to be caught over that limit. But even over here on this side of the pond where most of our guns are FAC guns, you will almost never find any of the ones used in competition set anywhere near their maximum levels.

For instance, I shoot an Allan Zasadny Modified Theoben MFR FAC in .177 Caliber and use 10.2 grn. JSB pellets. I could easily run this gun up to shooting at just under 1000 f/s. But, do I? NO! I must admit that it will shoot the lights out if set at the upper limit. But the absolute maximum advantage if found a full 2 revolutions of the power knob outward which lowers the velocity down into the mid-800's. There's where my gun settles in and comes into its own and is a true record-setter. Plus, after finally discovering this I am now finding there being much less of a chance of seeing any power drop-off's over the course of a 35 shot (including sighters) Air Gun Bench Rest (AGBR) target where before I'd sometimes walk away from the bench wondering what the heck had just happened near the end of the target.

The way I discovered this was not by looking for it, but rather by accident. I had set out an AGBR target at 25 yards (Indoors), then was shooting 4 to 10 sighters, then would move on to shooting 5-shot groups across each line, line by line, for a full target. This meant I was simulating shooting 25 shots plus sighters for each line, the same as when shooting an entire target during competition, and could better compare what was happening.

At the time I had been trying to work on my shooting technique thinking that was the problem. I have always been a fanatic on studying what is caused by shooter error, and what is caused by equipment failures. But, this time when I started to look at my targets after shooting just 3 lines I couldn't help but notice that there was always some sort of opening up of the groups on that last target of each line, and ever time it was due to pellet drop causing a stringing affect.

It didn't take long to realize what was happening was that I was running out of air before finishing each 25 shot (plus sighters) target. So, now my focus turned to my power level adjustment. It took a full two revolutions turned outward lowering my fps down from 960fps to 850fps before everything settled back down accuracywise. And man, did it settle down! At our next match not only did I shoot a 250 on the first target (been almost a year since seeing one of those), but I followed that up with a 249, then 248 making my all-time personnal best Agg of 747, and my total x-count wasn't that shabby either with 20 of those.

In conclusion I would just like to say that speed means nothing unless you are running against the clock, but consistency is everything when it comes to accuracy.

Dave Shattuck
 
Agreed

It may take some time, but eventually I think most arrive at similar conclusions, that lesser air equates to better consistency across the string and that somewhere in the middle is an area of quality air, giving greater velocity before rapidly dropping off and opening up the grouping.
I have noted, with unregulated guns, before reaching the sweet spot, when the firing valve finds it easier to open. The variation plotted across the optimum power curve, is greater than the variation across the curve of the string shot with the poorer quality air, prior to said sweet-spot.
That is, on a maximum fill, there are actually more shots available when the firing pot is harder to open with greater repeatable consistency, before encountering the better quality air, giving greater velocity, greater variation and the potential for more inconsistency.
I found that filling to the sweet spot, say 160bar. Should theoretically provide 60 shots, at an assumed average of 1 bar per shot, sub 12fpe.
A true assertion perhaps across the poor air range, but as the firing pot opens easily across the sweet spot, the air consumption is greater, providing all that inconsistent velocity and ultimately the potential for pellet drop as the better quality air begins to deplete.
Something that happened to me once and which I care not to repeat.
I prefer to treat the sweet spot as a reserve and compensate for the increased elevation should I ever have to tap it. A situation I prefer to avoid if at all possible, but it's reassuring to know it's there, particularly if windy.
All that before having to contend with wind, helical trajectory arc, pellet antimony variation, distortion, surface dirt and plain old bad luck flyers.
I just can't bring myself to wash & weigh pellets ........... yet!

Happy New Year all.
 
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Gary,

I concur whith your writings about pressure/power and the sweet spot. You describe it very well...

You make the comment at the bottom of your previous post that causes me to bring up a question I've been pondering for some time.

You commented: "All that before having to contend with wind, helical trajectory arc, pellet antimony variation, distortion, surface dirt and plain old bad luck flyers.
I just can't bring myself to wash & weigh pellets ........... yet!"

My question is, "Does a benchrest shooter shooting a 25 roundel target expect a higher level of accuracy from his gun than a group shooter or an FT shooter?"

I ask this as it would seem to me from what I've seen and learned about AGBR shooting, that this would seem to be true... The key in your comment is that "I just can't bring myself to wash & weigh pellets ........... yet!"

Please do not take this the wrong way, but it would seem to me by your comment that you do not require or expect the same level of accuracy that we here shooting in AGBR matches require or am I missing something in this assumption?

I've also observed that guns used for FT type shooting in general do not appear to be tuned to the degree that guns used for "AGBR" type benchrest shooting get tuned.

I realize that some shooters might see this as a controversial subject and I'm not suggesting this to start a debate, I'm asking it purely for wanting to know if others see this same comparison as I see it. Frankly I'm suspicious that comparison of the guns used for FT shooting to the guns used for AGBR type shooting is like trying to compare apples to oranges as the needs for a gun to be a top performer in each category is distinctly different. As I see it, a gun intended for FT shooting needs to be easily handled in different positions and balanced ideally for off hand shooting, or if rested, the rest being the human body. In comparison, a "benchrest" gun wants to be big and heavy and shaped to "ride the bags" with utmost stability being the primary concern and have as little influence by the human body as possible. A benchrest shooter's gun is not optimized for hand holding while shooting. I would also state that it is my belief that the ideal benchrest type pellet gun should be able to consistently hold a .10" group or tighter for 30 shots minimum. I believe that I have a gun that comes close to being capable of this accuracy as well as several other of the Holbrook shooters. Its my opinion based on my own testing that the accuracy issue really boils down to pellet quality not the potential for accuracy of the gun itself when you have a gun of this level of potential accuracy...

It would also seem to me that FT shooting is more based on a versatile operator technique than AGBR which is based on a more inflexible technique for lack of better words. In other words, FT type shooting is more of a operator test whereas AGBR type shooting is more of a precision equipment test...

And that brings us to the issue of washing and weighing pellets... I divide this subject into two parts, washing separate from weighing. After much testing and several thousand pellets of each type, I've come to the conclusion JSB Exact pellets in both .177 and .22 caliber provide the most consistent accuracy in my PCP target airguns. Crosman Premier Heavy in .177 caliber and Beeman Kodiak in .22 caliber would be my second choice, however the JSB Exact pellets give me the best consistency overall. Its my opinion that both the JSB pellets, Beeman Kodiak, and the Crosman pellets do not require washing, they both seem to be very clean and whatever the lubricant used by either maker seems to be compatible with my methods.

However, for me, weighing pellets and weight sorting is the most important issue of preparing for a match. I've proven to myself over many thousands of pellets shot that pellet weight is a very important factor in achieving the consistency required to win an AGBR match. As I see it, weight sorting pellets eliminates nearly all of the unexpected fliers and by sorting pellets into 0.1gn lots, and by shooting pellets all of the same weight staying with the most consistent weight pellets from a tin, i.e. with 18gn JSB, I reserve the 18.2 gn and 18.3 gn pellets to shoot in a match and only shoot pellets from the same weight batch on a 25 roundel target. I'm also convinced this weight sorting will weed out the pellets with an unseen flaw, an internal void throwing the pellet off balance, a smaller than normal head to mention a couple. When weighing pellets one also gets a chance to inspect each pellet for obvious flaws. As I weigh the pellets, I have a second scale set up that I will put the batches of sorted pellets on to determine the quantity. 35 ea .22 JSB Exact Jumbo Heavy weighs 42.3 grams and these get placed in a empty plastic 35mm film canister labeled as to weight.

When shooting a match, regardless of caliber gun I'm using, my procedure is to put the 35 weight selected pellets in an empty JSB .22 pellet tin lid which has a couple of drops of air tool oil wiped thinly inside it. As I shoot, I tilt this lid with the pellets to roll the pellets so I can select one that rolls in the expected arc turning in towards the head as part of the final selection process and at the same time, pick up a very thin film of oil on the rim of both the head and skirt before I place the pellet in the gun's breech. Pellets that thump, thump, thump, as they roll, become the sighters and three pellets I always shoot first to settle the gun and rest before starting scoring shots on each target. Pellets that roll smoothly and with the expected inward arc get fired for score. By pre-sorting into 35 pellet groups, for a 25 roundel target in a match, I have yet to use all 35 pellets, often I end up with 6 or 7 pellets of the 35 remaining to add to the next batch of the same weight...

For what it is worth, this procedure of pellet weighing and selection works for me witness the results of the Holbrook Dec. 5th match. I made it all the way to the 22nd scoring shot on the third target before getting one unexpected flier. That is 71 consecutive shots scoring "10", 25 being "X"s...

Wishing you all a Happy New Year,

Happy Shooting Y'all,
Mitch & Shadow...
 
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Happy New Year Mitch,

I'm sure Gary will be along to give you his views shortly.

We both shoot HFT (This is mainly a prone event with a handful of positionals thrown in a very stable position is usually obtainable) not FT as we don't do Knob Twiddling at our club and prefer rolling in the mud with our guns to sitting on a cushion.

However FT is in my opinion the Formula one of Airgun Target shooting not because the guns are tuned more than benchrest rigs but they have so much more to contend with with their equipment and the elements over a given course of fire. They are very critical of their equipment wanting extremely tight variance on their chrono strings, temperature shifts with both scopes and rifles and obviously overall accuracy out to 55yds.

I used to be a member at Bisley when I first swapped over from clayshooting and I think some of the top shots who were their in the FT position were probably more stable than some people off a bench. They also in the UK aren't allowed straps like in the USA.

Speaking as mainly a HFT shooter (You have to shoot on a lowish mag as you cannot adjust the AO or magnification once you have started a course of fire so obviously some targets are blurred and by the time those 15mm reducers have been shot 40 plus times they are hard to see) so I have to be able to have confidence that my equipment can hit a 17.5mm target at 45yds so obviously that level of accuracy is much lower than for benchrest.

I don't weigh or sort pellets for HFT I just tip them out of the tin into the pouch around my neck and as I have poor close vision I can not inspect them as I try to leave my glasses in the car rather than on the course as has happened more than once.

I have weighed pellets for benchrest in the past but like alot of others have given it up and gone to shooting out of the tin mainly. As I have had many a wayward shot out of weighed and sorted batches just like out of the tin.

Gary shoots very good scores out of the tin off his bipod and using his left hand as his back bag. Most of us at Buxted have now gone to a bipod because of his success with one my consistency has certainly improved.

There is a saying down the club "Life is too short for weighing pellets."

FT and HFT are trajectory, rangefinding and usually wind doping games with indoor BR being more clinical so I think for me BR kit needs to be better accuracy wise. However the nut behind the butt still plays for me abigger part than some will have you think.

What we have found is FT guns are certainly no better than the humble 400 that has been sorted at this game.

Andy
 
Happy New Year all.
Whilst I agree with most of what Andy has said in response, I personally don't regard any discipline as the Rolls Royce of airgun shooting. They all have their individual exponents and merits. I wouldn't dream of detracting from the obvious skill of any shooter in utilising their equipment, FT is simply not for me.
I'm of the opinion, that i'm a bit of a purist when it comes to shooting. A highly tuned, consistently accurate rifle and highly skilled shooter are a recipe for success. I certainly wouldn't however, attribute everything to the kit, as without the shooter it's just kit. That's why I prefer HFT, as there's more emphasis on the skill of the shooter.
I believe off-hand shooting hones a shooter's skills and instills a better reaction to external change.
Andy attributes his improved success to a bipod? ........ errrm no, he does himself an injustice. Andy's success is due to a better Andy, not better kit.
The tolerances for accuracy in FT/HFT aren't anywhere near as precise as those for bench-rest. They're 3 entirely different disciplines, related only in principle. The general requirement for FT/HFT being the placement of a 5.5mm or less calibre pellet, into common target zones ranging in size from 15mm to 45mm, at pre-determined ranges between 8 and 55 yards.
To put things into perspective. For bench rest, the shooter has to consistently place a 4.5mm lead pellet, of dubious quality, onto 25 minute 2mm rings, 75 feet away.
The discipline requiring the greatest degree of consistent accuracy is a no-brainer as far as i'm concerned.
I do despair that greater reliance is being placed on the kit than the shooter. The observation that perhaps my HFT kit might not be as highly tuned as my dedicated bench-rest equipment, couldn't be further from the truth. I have only recently purchased an un-tuned MPR purely for bench-rest, as a one gun does all. We shoot 3 different bench-rest classes, light, heavy and sporter. The MPR complies with all. Previously I would have used the rifles employed in the field on the bench. The degree of tuning for HFT was irrelevant as it only became apparrent on the bench.
My shooting style & equipment raises a few eyebrows and I find that amusing, but hey! I like to travel light. With the advent of rule changes on the world stage, I have to conform if I wish to continue to play the game, hence the purchase of the MPR and bench equipment.
Against advice, I took the MPR out of the box at the UK Nationals. Untouched by anyone other than the manufacturer, I scoped it, zeroed it and popped on a bi-pod. On the second detail it broke down right before the off. In the 5 minutes allowed for a repair, I stripped it on the bench while the RO and fellow competitors looked on, diagnosed and repaired the fault, reassembled the rifle and re-zeroed during the detail. My scores contributed to our club winning both national team events, secured my place on the national squad and won gold for the UK in the World Postal. Other than confidence in the rifle after shooting the first detail, that's where it ended for the equipment, the shooter did everything else.
You guys are proving to be just as much 'anoraks' over bench-rest as we are in the UK, though you appear to have attained an enviable technical level in a far shorter time. You pool knowledge and share information and that I believe is the secret to your rapid success. It is a concept that is openly encouraged at Buxted and in that may be our own strength.
In a relatively short space of time, I personally have gained quite a bit from you lot, that has either reinforced existing concepts, or had me re-evaluating some from a different perspective. We're already taking advantage of your custom shop expertise and purchasing components from the US, that have already been tried and tested by shooters, for shooters.
The US level of technical success is to be envied, but I feel this is at the expense of the human aspect and in that I think the challenge is lost.
Eventually scoring will be made on 10x's as already occurs on rim-fire BR and once the 25x Holy Grail has been attained ........ where next?
Originally in the UK, the Hunter class was created to allow those with hunter type equipment, the opportunity to compete in bench-rest in a separate division to Unlimited. A hunter could shoot in the unlimited class but the provision wasn't reciprocal, owing to the technical advantages of Unlimited rifles. Over time, the differences have been eroded to the point, where there is little distinction between what you in the US would call Light/Heavy varmint, apart from the human aspect of shooting off-hand and a restriction on stock type. The new world rules have all but out-lawed the hunter element and favour the technical shooter rather than the skillful shooter. Luckily the UK governing body has retained the the rules to encourage the sport to be inclusive within it's own borders, but those with international aspirations dance to either one or both tunes. US benchrest is what you've made it, much as we have in the UK. To compete on the international stage, one must have rules acceptable to all and leave the home rules at home.
Comparisons can only be made on a level playing field.
Although bench-rest in different nations may be the same in principle, at the base level they are likely to be distinctly different. A nettle you appear to be beginning to grasp.
Vivre la difference!
Gary.
:)
 
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