Help! What is "Factory Class" anyway?

Wilbur said:
...For every competitor that shoots registered matches, there are thousands that don't. If we could accurately target "why", our effort may have a chance. I'll throw out a couple:

Unaware of benchrest shooting altogether

Don't know what to expect (protocol)
Click to expand...

Let me through out one.

They haven't been asked.

And while you are at it, ask them to bring a friend. Their is nothing like the buddy system for guys with their hobbies. Shoot with them in a practice session and meet them at the match to show them the ropes.

Concho Bill
 
after surfing the new factory rim fires offered by savage and cz, with ruger and marlin not showing there new offerings among others, I'm thinking factory class is going to be more confusing, or separating rabbit gun from target is going to be even harder, improvements in trigger , stock and barrel configurations show a very wide range..is a heavy barrel on a squirrel gun OUT ?, is a varmint stock out, accutrigger out, I'm glad I'm not makin the rules for a sanctioned factory class:eek:
 
Let me begin by saying that I agree with the sentiments expressed by Ken Henderson and that I have never shot benchrest. It is unlikely that I will, but my interest in all things leads me here and other places. I am immersed in the smallbore prone world and prior to that competed in International Air and 50 Meter pistol. I like competing; that's what draws me to the shooting sports. As someone that would be new to BR if I did choose to compete, I wouldn't have a clue about what constituted sporter, factory or target rifle classes. I seriously doubt anyone else new would know any of that either and likely would be turned off by all those details. The only persons interested and knowledgeable enough to discuss this information, would be people who wouldn't even be shooting in these "classes".

When I showed up to my first smallbore match, I was unclassified and grouped with the Master class as a result. I didn't expect to win and I didn't. But the first match earns a classification and can be used in subsequent matches. You use whatever equipment you have and then accumulate more later. Your skill, practice ethic, gear quality and desire ultimately determine what class you compete in as this will all determine your score average. You want more - you gotta do more. Why base classes on what equipment you bring? Just going to turn people off and away. I understand that not all BR matches are just score matches. But how hard would it be to determine a couple of brackets based on performance as in all other forms of competition? Now there's an idea. Even if there were only two, that would be something clear and eliminate all this inclusive/exclusive stuff I hear about. What a time saver.

Dennis L
 
What's the goal?

I think the first question that needs to be asked regarding the creation of a Factory Class is: What's the goal? In the BR games/classes that we have now there is one common goal; to achieve the ultimate in accuracy. ARA doesn't care what you bring to the line and the other games have classifications by rifle type and weight, but they share the goal of the ultimate in accuracy. It does become an equipment race, but that it what it is supposed to be. Part of the desired outcome is to advance our equipment and ammo to the pinnacle of accuracy and to better our knowledge of accuracy; to develope the best rifles and ammo possible and to obtain the knowledge and skills needed to shoot the best scores. I think it is this quest for excellence that has made this sport successful.

Now, what's going to be the goal of a factory class? To get more people shooting? To get the mfgs to improve the accuracy of their more readily available products? To see what ammo maker can make the best ammo under some price point? To determine the best casual shooter at a certain club or locale? Once you identify the goal, the rest is fairly easy.

If the goal is just to get more people shooting - make up a fun game that is as much about luck as it is accuracy. Where the kid with a cheap Marlin has as much chance of winning as someone with an expensive rifle. This type of game is possible - use your imagination.

If the goal is to get mfgs to improve their products. Then you should be prepared to allow the high-end rifles like Anshutz, ULA or Cooper and match ammo in the matches. If the game takes off and if Savage or CZ what to find their products on the winner's equipment list, then they know what to do. It would seem unfair to disqualify the mfgs that are already committed to building the most accurate factory rifles from this type of event.

If the goal is to see who is the best shot with a CZ452 then this would be an easy game to set up. Choose a realistic target, allow no modifications, maybe set a scope power limit and go at it.

IMO, the folks who gravitate to our current BR games, first, have a love affair for the little rimfire and, second, have a quest to achieve the ultimate in accuracy that can be obtained from this little cartridge. When you start to accept something less then the quest for excellence and start adding limitations, you'll find most won't be interested or stay interested for long. If you have the first (the love of rimfires), but not the second (the quest for ulitimate accuracy), then shooting tin cans is probably the best activity for you. Once you start down the road to see what you can achieve in the way of accuracy with a .22 rf, it won't matter where you start, you'll end up pretty quickly at the games we have now, shooting the best custom rifle you can find and afford.
 
gambler said:
after surfing the new factory rim fires offered by savage and cz, with ruger and marlin not showing there new offerings among others, I'm thinking factory class is going to be more confusing, or separating rabbit gun from target is going to be even harder, improvements in trigger , stock and barrel configurations show a very wide range..is a heavy barrel on a squirrel gun OUT ?, is a varmint stock out, accutrigger out, I'm glad I'm not makin the rules for a sanctioned factory class:eek:
Click to expand...

gambler, I'm not so sure that a sanctioned factory class is the real answer getting folks attracted to benchrest and the clubs. Myself I'd rather see each club run it the way they want with the target, rules, equipment decided by the club members. Getting into sanction competition would be part of the desire to get into such by competing in e.g. ARA, IR50/50 etc... Just my 2 and 1/2 cents worth.

Les
 
About the name of the proposed new class. It should not be a put down of a rifle class. Names like plinker, squirrel, rabbit gun, or sporter just don't have enough dignity or they are unclear.

How about Factory Class or Factory Non-target Class? Maybe Hunter Class or Factory Hunter?

The name of the class should have some dignity. Some people are sensitive about folks calling their prize squirrel gun a plinker.:)

Concho Bill
 
Bill was asking for a way to draw new shooters into BR shooting. That's why I tried to help. I think it's a worthwhile pursuit myself. It's just like NASCAR where they limit the intake of all the cars. I remember the days when it was all about spending as much money as you could and you had one car that would win by 30 laps. Now they have very competitive races and it seems to work far better than the old system did. The number of fans in the audience shows people want a contest that isn't about the machine but is more about the skill of the driver.

I think you can easily fall into the mentality of the old style of NASCAR racing in BR shooting. It quickly becomes more about how much money you can spend instead of how good of a shooter you are. I think you'll see people trying to protect their turf in that regard too because they want to be able to buy wins. Yet even now you see people with genuine talent win with $500 rifles like the Suhl-150. Sure they make adjustments and improvements to it but it isn't like starting with an Annie.

I'm not at all so sure that a factory class would die out so quickly. But the real goal was to get people started shooting and making it more accessible to more people might well inspire them to move up to unlimited shooting. If the factory competitions die but some of the people who started there move up to unlimited then wasn't that the goal from the start?
 
You cannot buy a win unless you totally outclass every gun there with your superduper BR million dollar rifle, which is not the case. There is a great degree of parity on the line and after a certain dollar amount, the law of diminishing returns starts to hit hard. What you really need is an inside track on ammo. So, with unlimited BR, you don't buy it; you win it. Now if somebody shows up with a subpar rifle, they will most likely be beaten badly. But that's not buying a win, that's scrimping a loss. Starting with a Suhl 150 may be better than an Annie but that's another story.

However, a new game/class my be just the thing. The familiar gets stale sometimes and the only way to invigorate it is start something totally new.
 
Entry levels are a stepping stone. Nearly all shooters began at another
point. How many do you know that one day, decided to just get into
BR with out ever shooting just for fun. With todays methods, who
could afford it. The desire and motivation has to be theirs.You can only
inspire so much. Ask yourself, why is this attractive to older guys, and not the young people. Basic economics my friend. College loans, baby on the way. That you as an accomplished shooter has little interest in one
of big greens offering is not the question. It is a beginning for new
people. We need that. The learning curve is not that simple and we
all wear out a gun in that process. Making that affordable and fun
cannot hurt. Nearly all shooting clubs have some type of entry level
shoot, so we have the people. What is missing, is a uniform guide
placing everyone on the same page. That a shooter could go to another
club and compete improves the attendance. When you travel to
another club and are told that we don't allow 36X on a factory gun.
That shooter is gone with out kind words. Then tell him that if
he shoots to good, he may have to sell his gun. Certainly we can
do better than that.
 
I told myself I was going to stay out of this discussion, but I don't listen very well from all the past shooting:) This topic seems to come up every year, usually by people who have jsut began shooting, usually about this time of the year. It is indeed a noble thought to try and introduce new shooters to our sport. I know I had all sorts of great ideas when I started out in rimfire on how to get more folks involved. So far, I think I actually helped one fellow who wanted to get started already, I didn't talk him into it, so I guess I can't even take credit for that.
Back in 2006 or 2007 Wilbur in IR50/50 devised a type of factory class, and an 8.5 Lb with unlimited scope power class for those folks who wanted to participate. I think there was a total of 3 fellows who shot the class the entire year, and I think it was only on one occasion?

It would be great if someone came up with an idea to increase attendance, but darned if I can think of one. I invited guys to shoot, furnished rifles, ammo, rests, etc.. They never came back. I gave up on it.
Some people are not just competitive folks. Some want to play but only if they can win! And then some are so arrogant that they don't want to lose to those who they feel are lesser than themselves. Some gun shop groupies talk good game when they're talking about how great their rifle will shoot, but you invite 'em to shoot, and all of a sudden they're too busy, and can't possibly show up. The first thing I tell folks is that if you're afraid of losing, this is not the game for you! You are going to lose sometimes, no matter how well you do. It's a tough game, but lots of fun, if that's what you want to do.
This game is just not a game for everyone. Most folks don't want to spend/waste the money and time it takes to do it.

By all means keep brainstorming on how to get more folks into sanctioned competitions. If they're not going to shoot in sanctioned matches, they may as well shoot tin cans in the back yard. And that's a game for pistols, not rifles:).
I would love to see more people shooting in rimfire BR matches, but it's just not for everybody. Most of the young folks have better things to spend their time and money on.
Good luck.
 
Now if somebody shows up with a subpar rifle, they will most likely be beaten badly. But that's not buying a win, that's scrimping a loss.
Click to expand...

I don't doubt that past a certain point it is about talent as much as equipment. I was thinking of people in local clubs who aren't looking to win national events but rather just their club shoots. I don't believe everyone is like that. I don't think a lot of people are like that. I just think a few people are like that. I already know that many people are willing and even anxious to help new shooters. I think I've been treated better by shooters than any other group of people I've ran into in a while. I think it's the culture of people who like to shoot. We are mostly people who are connected to country living in one way or another and country people are generally more friendly IMO. Of course lots of city people are like that too but I've lived in the cities and I've seen that quite a few of them aren't like country people. One city I lived in the one thing that people cared about more than anything was trying to get over on people. Country people can be like that too but in my experience outdoor types and people with a connection to country living are just more friendly.

I can't prove any of this of course. I just know I've been treated very well by shooters both on this board and at the local gun club.

And yes I did toss in my 2 cents as someone new to BR. I thought the views of someone new might be helpful to people who have been involved for a long time. I'm just trying to help really. If nothing I say makes a difference it won't be from a lack of trying. I have no claim to any special insight. I just know what I think and what other people I've talked to have said.
 
the match i shot in last year you couldn't cheat. it was a.r.a. the people i shoot with i would trust. the fact is human nature. people want to be number one. if nobody is checking the ammo, the scopes, the rifles and so on people will cheat.


how amny people put thier eley ammp in different boxes to keep others from finding out what lot it is? the simple fact is some people will do what it takes to win.

ask anybody i have shot with. i freely hand out boxes of ammo for others to try. i have loaned out the rifle i knew was my best rifle at the time to my cousin to shoot against me in a match.

you can place limits on everything you want. not everybody is honest. there are those who will cheat. unless a judge checks every box of ammo(the bullets themselves will be one thing to check, but most will simply look at the stamp on the back of the case to make sure it is what it should be), every scope and every rifle there will be somebody cheating.

i have drove dirt track race cars. i always stuck to the rules. we knew who didn't because they always won. the judges wouldn't tear thier motors down when we protested!!! if we beat one of them you can bet our motors were tore into pieces and inspected with a fine tooth comb!!

i watched my father pull trucks(farm stock) when i was growing up. samething there. people would run lockers in the front ends and rear ends. people would run heads with closed chambers that were way smaller than 64cc's. they would run gears that we knew were not factory.

it is human nature to cheat. it is human nature to want to be number 1 and looked upon highly by others.

people who truely know me will tell you i speak my mind and don't care if it hurts others or makes them mad. i say what needs to be said and leave it there. these are all things somebody who is thinking of starting a factory class needs to think about.

i won't post on here anymore. i have found many people who are willingto help new guys here. i have also found many who don't want anybody to come to a match that could beat them.
 
I would agree that there are lots of people who would cheat if they could Mr. Nobody. My suggestion was to sell ammo and not allow any other ammo to be used or even brought into the building. You should be able to control the type of ammo used that way. It might still be possible to cheat but I would think not many would risk public embarassment from getting caught switching ammo. It would be much harder to do. You could require that the ammo you sold be kept out where people can see it and you could have people watching what is going on.

The bad part of course is that you wouldn't really know who the best shooter was because the ammo isn't consistent enough. Bad ammo could knock out the best shooters.
 
Any 22RF

That's the nice part about ARA. Any brand 22 Long RF. I don't care who's box you put it in, it's legal. Just don't get caught messing with the Lube or altering it in any way.
 
The less rules the better (just my thoughts)

I can see nothing good out of trying to restrict or control the ammo. I don't like the idea of looking thru everyone's scope for the power or checking the trigger pull or making cast of the chambers to check for aftermarket alterations.

If the rifle has a factory barrel and matching factory action. That ought to be good enough. Furthermore, I don't worry about brass tacks nailed into the stock or the feather hanging from the barrel.:) If it makes the shooter feel better that is fine. If it works I'll be hanging a feather off of mine.

Concho Bill
 
Bill,

It's not unusual to have scopes checked for power at the bigger matches. Referees do it when they tape the variables. A quick glance will tell you if a scope is way over powered. I also don't believe that there are many guys out there who willingly cheat. Sure it does happen on occasion, but the vast majority of the shooters are some of the best people you'll ever meet. If you do cheat, what did you really win?

Ken
 
We tried it yesterday

We tried the Factory class yesterday and It went very well.

"Factory class" and Unlimited 50/50 side by side. It was a cool morning with modest variable breezes at the San Angelo Gun Club with ten shooters on the line. Five shot the so called "Factory class" and five shot the unlimited class. We all had fun and it was very little extra trouble.

All of the factory rifles were just that. There were no target stocks or heavy barrels. They were all shiny and well kept if not new. They were just good squirrel guns. The scope power was not lacking with variable power scopes. Two piece rest were mostly used but not exclusively. The scores ranged from 235 to 245 with a couple of exceptions due to a new shooter failing to shoot a few bulls (we have all done that).

The match winners were just as excited as if they had won the nationals. This idea in some form will work and the sport will be better for it.

I will forward the results to Wilbur even though we know there is not an existing place to record them.

I will put it in the record that Jan Sedivy won first place in all three matches so he is the first winner in this class and that can never be disputed.

Concho Bill
 
Good Start

Bill,

(Five shot the so called "Factory class" and five shot the unlimited class.)
So how did you advertise to get your first 5 shooters?

(The scores ranged from 235 to 245)
So these were the factory rifles? If so not to bad.

(Jan Sedivy won first place in all three matches)
So curious what was Jan's equipment setup, rifle, scope, ammo?

Les
 
Just for the record I don't think a big percentage of people would cheat. When I said "lots" of people would cheat that's in the entire country. I wouldn't think you would find any cheaters at most shoots. I know I wouldn't cheat because the only person I would be cheating would be me. I wouldn't know how I did if my shooting was based on bending the rules. I'd just know how well I cheated.

Bill the only reason I suggested limiting the ammo was to limit the amount of money it takes to get involved. I know it would make the contest more about luck than it is now and that isn't a good thing. Still there needs to be a way for shooters with less money to get involved IMO.
 
if you build it they will come ???

if you build it they will come !
not so !!, if you build and promote it and educate the masses they might come.
it's all like water seeking it's own level, you can have small knots of shooters at, VFW halls, Eagles lodges, local bars, ect, ect... left to their own they will make their own rules as to equipment and most times they fall apart due to infighting and lack of leadership.. these places are a good place to start looking for participants to come to organized benchrest events.
first the majority have rifles and scopes falling into the $400 range or less and don't have a clue as to what GOOD STUFF ammo is, these guys are red blooded Americans that grew up listening to the old timers tout rifles and ammo such as granddads marlin and Federal ammo.
i see it everyday at the shop, folks buying low level equipment(rifles, ammo, and scopes), only to come back and trade up for something more user friendly.like one with adjustable trigger or a scope with adjustable objective and wanting to buy foreign made ammo because it shoots better..well it's a tricky thing to sell them on what they really need to start out right with.
I've learned they have to go Thur most of it in their own,. now if i can learn patience and gently suggest a better way or better equipment instead of becoming frustrated because they don't take my advice, if i can point the way to an organized group that can help them, then i can do a better job on my part !!!
if bench rest clubs want more shooters they have to come up with simple games, make it affordable, less intimidating, easily accessed, and promote, promote,promote...by printing flyer's, word of mouth and offering prizes/incentives to come see what they have built...
then they might come
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top