Haste makes waste when prepping brass

adamsgt

adamsgt

Jerry Adams
Decided to prep another 25 6ppc cases before heading to Raton next week. Went the pistol powder wax plug method for initial expansion. Neck turned after that step. Loaded the rounds and went to the range early yesterday to fire with a bullet. The brass looked a little funny after the first firing but couldn't put my finger on it. Every thing seemed to go fine until the second to last round. It wouldn't come close to entering the chamber. I pulled it out and it really looked strange. The neck seemed to be way too long. Grabbed the neck and pulled part of it off. Light bulb starting to come on. Looked for a piece of brass without a neck and sure enough there was one in the pile. Last night after re-reading article on 6ppc brass on Accurate shooter site I had full illumination on my error. I had used this method before with no problem but this time I had forgot the step to expand the neck to near chamber diameter before charging and sealing with wax. So I didn't get enough expansion and that's why the brass looked funny. Not sure of the specific reason for the neck separation but it casts doubts on the rest of the brass.

So, should the rest of the brass be relegated to practice sessions?
 
stool said:
jerry,
not sure of exactly what your process or what it produces.
i use a lot of very fast pistol powder with nothing else..no wad no wax.

the rifle is pointed straight up..and the fired brass is very well fully formed.
nice sharp shoulder nice corner ...in a single step it is ready to trim to length and turn..
Click to expand...

I used my precious Bullseye powder up to the neck in the .220 Russian case. I sealed the case using dental impression wax and fired off a rest horizontally. Shoulder was rounded somewhat and not sharp. When I had done this previously I expanded the neck and then necked down to .261 before charging with bullseye. I got good results this way but not when leaving out the expanding step.

Let me understand your method. You take a .220 Russian case, prime it, add pistol powder(type?) up to (how much?) and then fire it with the gun held vertical. Is that it? And it gives you good sharp corners?

At this point I'm loath to use anymore of my Bullseye powder as I can probably load 4 or 5 .38 wadcutter loads for what I put in one .220 Russian case. And, has anyone seen any Bullseye jugs for sale anywhere? I've got at least 8 jugs of VV-133 so I may go back to using a bullet first for fire forming.
 
zippy06 said:
Friends say there is ton of bullseye at Camp Perry.
Click to expand...

Well, there certainly isn't any where I look. I'll have to see if I know anyone who's going. I went there for about 17 years when I was shooting bullseye pistol. Maybe next year I could go as a volunteer. Doubt we'll ever see benchrest matches at Perry.
 
Another method

I seat a primer in the .220 Russian case as is. I fill the case with cornmeal and tap the case until tightly filled. Plug with dental wax and fire. Have not had any problems. I admit that the cornmeal is messy,
but the results are worth the effort. 8.5 grains of Unique forms the case well.
 
I like to bump the shoulder, expand and turn/trim before i do anything else but thats just me. I use em for fouler shots with 45 clicks of 322 and by the end of the match i have formed my brass for the next match
 
Dusty Stevens said:
I like to bump the shoulder, expand and turn/trim before i do anything else but thats just me. I use em for fouler shots with 45 clicks of 322 and by the end of the match i have formed my brass for the next match
Click to expand...

Did another batch of 25 yesterday just like you said. I'll finish them up at Raton on Thursday or Friday.
 
Sounds fishy what you said in the first post

How much did you cut the shoulder of the cases...the cases where the neck was coming off when fire forming....
________________

Came back to add - there's just no good reason to cut into the shoulder when neck turning. Yes, you can say it but it ain't true:)
 
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Wilbur said:
How much did you cut the shoulder of the cases...the cases where the neck was coming off when fire forming....
________________

Came back to add - there's just no good reason to cut into the shoulder when neck turning. Yes, you can say it but it ain't true:)
Click to expand...

Yep, you're right Wilbur. Turns out I did some really dumb sh_t. I was trying to just bite into the shoulder. At Raton this weekend, Todd Tyler looked at my unformed brass and pointed out that I was about three thou into the shoulder. Turns out I was looking at the neck shoulder junction from the wrong perspective when setting my neck turner. I was looking down at the neck/shoulder junction and saw that a little band of shiny brass at the junction looked good. However, when I held the case in profile against bright light it was quite clear that I had cut at least three thou into the shoulder. The notch was clearly apparent. Talk about a serious brain fart.

Oh, wait. I got another one. When I first got into this game I ordered neck turning gear from K&M. Deciding to order a bunch of stuff I ordered expanding mandrels and carbide pilots in .223, 6PPC and .30. I got the .30 because I thought I might get a 30BR someday. I somehow missed that I'd need a 6mm -.30 expander instead of a .30 expander. At this juncture, I have no idea why I ordered anything in .223. To top it all off, fearing the dreaded doughnut, I ordered all the pilots with the cutting end in order to beat the doughnuts to the punch. Well, I've discovered that the cutting pilots are scoring the inside of the necks. Looks like they're threaded. I called K&M and they said that it shouldn't happen that way, especially since I was using their expander. So I ordered some pilots without the gnashing teeth and I will set up the two tools again. Jim Hemmert said that I could have avoided all this if I'd just bought prepped brass from Bob Mundy like he does. That would've been great if I didn't have so much money tied up in all this gear already. But, I think I've got most of the stupid stuff taken care of and I'm going to take another whack at making a few more cases. I think I can do it the right way now because I've used up most of the wrong ways.
 
adamsgt said:
Yep, you're right Wilbur. Turns out I did some really dumb sh_t. I was trying to just bite into the shoulder. At Raton this weekend, Todd Tyler looked at my unformed brass and pointed out that I was about three thou into the shoulder. Turns out I was looking at the neck shoulder junction from the wrong perspective when setting my neck turner. I was looking down at the neck/shoulder junction and saw that a little band of shiny brass at the junction looked good. However, when I held the case in profile against bright light it was quite clear that I had cut at least three thou into the shoulder. The notch was clearly apparent. Talk about a serious brain fart.

Oh, wait. I got another one. When I first got into this game I ordered neck turning gear from K&M. Deciding to order a bunch of stuff I ordered expanding mandrels and carbide pilots in .223, 6PPC and .30. I got the .30 because I thought I might get a 30BR someday. I somehow missed that I'd need a 6mm -.30 expander instead of a .30 expander. At this juncture, I have no idea why I ordered anything in .223. To top it all off, fearing the dreaded doughnut, I ordered all the pilots with the cutting end in order to beat the doughnuts to the punch. Well, I've discovered that the cutting pilots are scoring the inside of the necks. Looks like they're threaded. I called K&M and they said that it shouldn't happen that way, especially since I was using their expander. So I ordered some pilots without the gnashing teeth and I will set up the two tools again. Jim Hemmert said that I could have avoided all this if I'd just bought prepped brass from Bob Mundy like he does. That would've been great if I didn't have so much money tied up in all this gear already. But, I think I've got most of the stupid stuff taken care of and I'm going to take another whack at making a few more cases. I think I can do it the right way now because I've used up most of the wrong ways.
Click to expand...

Couple of things;

1-the donut is the least of worries in short-range benchrest. Even with zero freebore your bullets made on 0.825 or shorter jackets will never come close to the donut area on PPC length necks, even with 0.050 jump.

2-keep the turners spindle clean and lightly lubed and it will never score the necks inside. If you get brass buildup on the turner spindle, remove the spindle and turning in a lathe or drill, polish the brass off with OOOO steel wool, then lube the spindle again,
.
3- it's Bud not Bob, and Ron Hoehn sells quality prepped brass too.

4-it is important to know what your chamber neck diameter actually is. Some shooters want as close as 0.0005" clearance, some shoot as much as 0.004" clearance....but benchrest repeatability is about knowing where you are before you change something/anything.
 
JerrySharrett said:
Couple of things;

1-the donut is the least of worries in short-range benchrest. Even with zero freebore your bullets made on 0.825 or shorter jackets will never come close to the donut area on PPC length necks, even with 0.050 jump.

2-keep the turners spindle clean and lightly lubed and it will never score the necks inside. If you get brass buildup on the turner spindle, remove the spindle and turning in a lathe or drill, polish the brass off with OOOO steel wool, then lube the spindle again,
.
3- it's Bud not Bob, and Ron Hoehn sells quality prepped brass too.

4-it is important to know what your chamber neck diameter actually is. Some shooters want as close as 0.0005" clearance, some shoot as much as 0.004" clearance....but benchrest repeatability is about knowing where you are before you change something/anything.
Click to expand...

Jerry

1. At the time I bought this stuff, I didn't know better. I understand that the doughnut is not an item of concern unless you're shooting long bullets.

2. I use canned air and blow everything off the tool and wipe it down when I do each case. I use FP-10 as a lube and apply it to the pilot for each case. These are carbide pilots and have no brass on them. I would see small chips in the flutes of the cutter on the end of the pilot after I withdrew it from the case, which is what leads me to believe that the pilot is cutting and scoring the inside of the neck.

3, I stand corrected. I knew it was Bud but it came out of my fingers wrong.

4. Well, I haven't done a chamber cast, but I measure my fired brass.
 
adamsgt said:
Jerry

1. At the time I bought this stuff, I didn't know better. I understand that the doughnut is not an item of concern unless you're shooting long bullets.

2. I use canned air and blow everything off the tool and wipe it down when I do each case. I use FP-10 as a lube and apply it to the pilot for each case. These are carbide pilots and have no brass on them. I would see small chips in the flutes of the cutter on the end of the pilot after I withdrew it from the case, which is what leads me to believe that the pilot is cutting and scoring the inside of the neck.

3, I stand corrected. I knew it was Bud but it came out of my fingers wrong.

4. Well, I haven't done a chamber cast, but I measure my fired brass.
Click to expand...

Are you using a fluted pilot on your turner? Use a solid pilot and you will get better results. Fluted neck turner pilots were and are a bad idea, IMO.
 
JerrySharrett said:
Are you using a fluted pilot on your turner? Use a solid pilot and you will get better results. Fluted neck turner pilots were and are a bad idea, IMO.
Click to expand...

Yes, I WAS using fluted pilots. I heartily agree that they are a bad idea. The solid pilots arrived yesterday and I will be setting up two tools with them shortly as I'd like to have some better brass for the Rattlesnake match in August.
 
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