Hardened VS unhardened FL dies

A

alinwa

oft dis'd member
Some may find this interesting.



Below are pix of 6X47L cases which have been full length sized and fired about 45 times. These cases haven't been annealed nor trimmed nor maintained in any way except for resizing between firings. Resize is set for absolutely minimal resistance, no chance of galling the lugs. Bolt handle drops with ounces of pressure. They have not grown in length.


I've included pix of cases resized using a fitted die and a fitted and HARDENED die...... both setups are using die wax as lube.


UNhardened die is made with a reamer ground .002 smaller than the chamber.

HARDENED die is a Jones set to the sizing spec that Neil and I hashed out....... I wanted more, Neil wanted less..... we settled in betwixt and the die works, perfectly.

Of interest, at least to me, is that the unhardend die invariably leaves the sized surface of the case scratched looking where the hardened die just burnishes or polishes the sized areas.

I don't know why.

It is furthermore my opinion that the hardened dies size more consistently, that the resultant "chambering feel" is more uniform.

I use this method on 6 different cases up to 300WSM fired 50fps below case failure and in all cases case life is 50 firings to ????? I don't have very many cases with more than 50 firings on them. Chambers include offerings from the BR, PPC, 6.5X47L, .308, 30-06 and WSM lines of cases.

All of my chambers are made with a 35 degree shoulder.


al
 

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I made three different FL dies for the same cartridge once. They were all Rockwell'd to different hardnesses by heat treating differently. The first one was too soft and scratched the brass exactly like your's. The second one was heat treated too hard and split the first time I used it. The third one was just right. Cases came out looking like your's from the Jones die. I'll tell you it's an art form knowing how hot to get something, how long to leave it at peak temp, knowing how to step up to peak and then back down again, and knowing how to quench and what to use. Those die mnftrs deserve every penny we pay them.:)
 
al,
45 firings on a case with no problems is very good in my opinion. Is there any difference in the way the cases shoot? If not, what is the problem, other than wanting pretty cases. I guess the softer dies would scratch easier. Maybe polishing with a shotgun mop and Flitz or such would remove the tiny imperfectins in the dies.

Donald
 
Donald said:
al,
45 firings on a case with no problems is very good in my opinion. Is there any difference in the way the cases shoot? If not, what is the problem, other than wanting pretty cases. I guess the softer dies would scratch easier. Maybe polishing with a shotgun mop and Flitz or such would remove the tiny imperfectins in the dies.

Donald
Click to expand...

No, they shoot the same although the unhardened ones are a little harder to adjust and use. They're stickier, need more lube. Get the lube wrong and cases will grow. With a hardened die I choose to use some seriously unconventional case lube sometimes..... like Butch's Boreshine... ;)

polishing the unhardened die makes no difference. The scratches aren't from imperfections.

I've been told the unhardened ones will wear out. I think the hardened ones are easier on the brass.

I like the burnished cases.



al
 
goodgrouper said:
I made three different FL dies for the same cartridge once. They were all Rockwell'd to different hardnesses by heat treating differently. The first one was too soft and scratched the brass exactly like your's. The second one was heat treated too hard and split the first time I used it. The third one was just right. Cases came out looking like your's from the Jones die. I'll tell you it's an art form knowing how hot to get something, how long to leave it at peak temp, knowing how to step up to peak and then back down again, and knowing how to quench and what to use. Those die mnftrs deserve every penny we pay them.:)
Click to expand...

So true.

al
 
Alinwa,

Have you considered sending the unhardened die (along with barrels) for the salt-bath nitriding process?
 
JerryK said:
Nice. Who did the hardening on the die?
Click to expand...

Jerry,

Sorry I didn't reply earlier, I just mis-forgot :eek:

I'd rather not guess who/how Neil does his dies, and I don't know. I even think he's told me but my cabeza sometimes dribbles.

Regarding having dies hardened..... I've been having dies done for 20 yrs and currently don't have anyone except Neil Jones that I trust. I DON'T KNOW how to have a die hardened right now.

My next two ventures into this area will be 12L-14 Leadloy cut with a .0015 undersized reamer and hardened..... and TiN or one of the "melonizing" or QCP or whatever nitriding processes applied to an undersized blank.

BTW I'm not completely convinced that unhardened dies don't stretch more......radially...... this is base speculation in an attempt to explain certain sizing phenomena.

So far I'm happy with Neil's stuff except that he refuses to bob the die bottoms like I prefer. :) And I soo cringe at running one of his artsy-fartsy's up against my benchgrinder...... but I do :D

al
 
I made some full length dies a couple weeks ago & tried them out before sending them out for heat treating, they gulled up the brass just like yours did.
The reason being is that the brass is almost as hard as the untreated steel.
After heattreating the harder surface should make a slicker surface or have that effect since it will be to hard for the brass to stick to it.
I hope to know for sure later this week when mine gets back from Fireball.
 
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Why do you guys make your own dies especially resizing dies ? The Rifler
 
therifler said:
Why do you guys make your own dies especially resizing dies ? The Rifler
Click to expand...

For me it's to achieve a match. Factory chambers vary on all dimensions by several thousandths from brand to brand and rifle to rifle of the same brand. Factory sizing dies the same. They cannot really match except through luck.

And I want my dies to EXACTLY match my chambers for perfect maintenance........ the only way to achieve this is pure-dee luck, or build it on purpose. :)

I expect any rifle, any chambering to be capable of being fired HOT if need be yet reloaded 50 times without ever breaking or needing trimming or whatever.

Exceptions, chamberings for which I've NOT been able to achieve this, include 22-250 and small caliber Ackleys like 22-250AI-6MMAI-.243AI.

al
 
Al thanks for the answer .I just started making my own dies ,my reason was prompted by excessive runout in my loading process. I made a full lenght sizer which worked great on one lot of brass but the new lot loss some tension . I had a bump die that I converted for resizing the case body and made a neck bushing die up for tension . I found that I can use this same die for seating also which elimnates the need for two dies and with an internal adapter it also serves as an expander . I have made several of these dies up for my customers and all seem to be making great cartridges . I specialize in ackley chamberings have not loss a case in 8 firing on my own cases and that seems to be the case with customers also . The Rifler
 
OK, I'm no metallurgist but here's what they tell me, the guys who do this for a living.

One gunsmith needed to modify the boltface on a nitrided bolt and had to go at it with a diamond cutter.

Kendrick tells me to have EVERYTHING done including barrel break-in before going to salt.....

I talked to a guy who needed to recrown a barrel... same thing, diamond cutter, the stuff wrecks carbide.

I've talked to several folks about bolts with thousands of rounds and not even a shine on the primary extraction cam yet... let alone showing wear on the body.

Bruce Thom feels that not only will the temp soak harden their actions but that the surface will be impenetrable. They got their run of stuff back from Joel last wk and I hope to find out tomorrow whether or not it stayed straight.

Regarding hardness the impression I get is that it makes "file hard" look soft.

al
 
Cool:cool:
I have a certificate for a free nitride process on a barrel. I'm hanging on to it till I learn more about it. It all sounds good so far.
I'll have to try this on my next batch of dies if the cost per die will let me.
 
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