Growing the IBS

jeff,
cost.....
my club shoots 6 clases..2 rimfire, and 4 centerfire....
three of the 4 are factory classes....only one is what we would call br.....
most people can afford a factory rifle...6x hunter class, any x sniper/heavy bbl, and varmit any power.
mike in co
 
In the IBS we have Score, Group and Long Range. IBS Score has grown some in the last few years while IBS Group lagged. One BIG problem for ranges putting on Group matches is the complication of making some kind of moving backers and moving that equipment from one yardage to the next. A few years ago when rimfire Group was floundering someone came up with a portable moving backer system that could be transported from yardage to yardage and range to range. This may be a minor part of the solution but it should be put on the table.

GerryM, I have participated in several national shooting sports in my 74 years. Most of them have some kind of handicapping ( or classification) system to help level competition. Something else to put on the table for brainstorming.
 
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I don't much care what happens to the attendance of the IBS league one way or another( I think they caused their own problems by trying to run independent of the NBRSA), but why would anyone want to "tone down" Benchrest? It's the Formula One of the shooting world. Yes, it's expensive. Yes, it requires top grade equipment. Yes, it's tough. But it's going to be that way by nature because it is the top level. You don't see the F1 guys trying to lure more racers in by putting 4 cyclinder engines in their cars and "dumbing down" the level of competition do you?
I love the fact that I can draw a bench next to Tony Boyer or Gary Ocock and compete directly with them without having any handicaps or "game levelers". I wouldn't play the game if it were any other way. Going down the handicap road to increase attendance is two steps in the wrong direction in my opinion.
 
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I think the registered matches need a factory class, with no requirement of being a member of any organization. I shoot factory class at club matches and know several guys who moved up to full-blown BR guns after having started in factory class. Usually, about a third of the shooters at those club matches are in factory class, and they represent a good portion of the potential growth of the sport. If it weren't for factory class, I would not have started shooting in matches; now that I've started I would probably participate in some registered matches if they included factory class.

In essence, the powers-at-be should lower the bar to entice participation from the casually-interested shooters.
 
Goodgrouper, no one is trying to "tone down" BR. By the way, the "split" occurred over 42 years ago! Right now the IBS long range program (600 and 1000 yard) is, far and away, the most active, vibrant and widespread program in the country. That pretty much goes for Score as well. The IBS group matches, are generally held in our traditional NY-PA area with a couple of exceptions.
 
A simple thought. It's not a cure all. IMHO, it will help.

When you go shoot, be friendly. When someone asks about your rifle, be nice to them. Give them a brief explanation, then invite them to shoot it and coach them through it some. Invite them to shoot with you. Give them your email address. Better yet, print some cheapo business cards with your contact info and give them one. If they get hooked, coach them through buying a rifle and help them with reloading. Let them share a bench and flags with you. Help them learn to read the wind. If they shoot well, they'll stick around. If they get ignored or someone is a total jerk to them, they'll quit.

That's how I got started. I've recruited a couple of folks doing it. It works.

FWIW, Greg J.
 
I have thought a lot about this very subject as I see other shooting sports growing in popularity and our numbers starting to decine.
I know that economics comes into play: equipment, travel, time, etc...but it is not the bottom line reason for why things are the way they are. The reasons stated above regarding other shooting sports and their inherent costs show that economics is part, but not the whole reason. I would have figured out a way to get a bench gun built or I would have shot in the factory class with what I had because I am drawn to making small holes and punching x's.

Make it accessible to more people and they will come: Accuracy school vs benchrest school (you will attract future benchrest shooters because they are interested in accuracy). Bring bench guns for demonstration purposes, set flags so that shooters can see how their bullets are affected by the wind, but make the focus on improving accuracy from the bench.
If you look at the savageshooters.com forum they are all talking about groups and accuracy - if we could get a small fraction of those shooters to come to a factory shoot we would be in good shape.

Do we need to make our matches for prize money instead of plaques?
I don't know the answer, but I would be willing to help organize accuracy schools at our club if someone who knew something about it wanted to give a class.
Mike
 
My 2 cents worth
Russell did not try to start a IBS vs NBRSA fight
Group match shooting is very labor intensive. Not only in preperatoion for a match but getting all the required help.
that said it is hard to get help
In the past few years many shooters only attend the Super Shoot and the Nationals
Score shooting is more popular because of being able to pre load and alot less help needed to run the match
Benchrest or accuracy schools are a must. They should be held at clubs with benchrest available.
Remember we are a small fraction of shooters and need to lure more in
It would be nice to see more top shooters give something back to the sport
As for Canastota I was removed to make sure Benchrest died at that club. Rumor has it everything benchrest related is up for sale
Mike M
 
The subject was getting IBS to grow. How soon attacks and opinions arize that have nothing to do with the questions asked'
See what i mean about classification , even for just a try? Trying to compare benchrest to Nascar will be next'
When my bench rifle get new tires and a new 600 hp engine then and only then would i compare benchrest to nascar raceing.
The jest of it some people like being a big fish in a small pond New freightens them an any idea that might jepordize there importance' Classification would be worth atry.
The split again'' some of us are still around who remember that. NBRSA member don't vote on rule changes or agends
Ibs members can , just attend the winter annual meeting. Its no secret that NBRSA has been undermineing IBs
IBS took Benchrest to an international level Not NBRSA. The object was to spread the Fun to everyone.
 
Well, here it goes. Not Quite sure if we will piss anyone off or not, but I feel it needs to be addressed.

The IBS is failing and it needs help to survive.s!

Very poorly stated Russel if you want to talk Group shooting do it but group is only one facet of IBS . Score and Long Range are not only doing well, if you consider the current economy and the relatively high cost to shoot BR I would say they are flourishing.


The IBS is done shooting for the year and we still have September and October,.

Another very incorrect statement , there are 30 Score shoots left including one National match and 10 State Championships. Long Range still has both of their Nationals and over 30 shoots left.

I just find it irritating when people think of Benchrest Shooting as only group shooting, if you are worried about the decline of group shooting in the Northeast thats fine but do not proclaim the whole sport as dieing it is not true. In short range BR I feel many people simply are opting for one day Score shoots rather than the expenses involved with multi day Group shoots. IBS Group shooting seems to be in a slump I will agree and I do not know what is the fix.

Dick Grosbier
 
Just my 2 cents, I believe that the biggest reason that match attendace is getting smaller in 100-300 yard, is do to equipement. Lets put it this way, anymore the matchs have become a equipement race, many get tired of keeping up, and get burned out, when they are not competitive. I belive that the IBS despertly needs to have a factory class. If you look the 600 yard stuff is growing, and I would say the reason why is because the palying field is levaled out, a fellow can modify a factory gun and have something that is competitive. One of the best matchs I have ever shot at is a 600 yard club match in SE ohio, this match has brougt in new shooters, and is rapidly growing. They have big payouts, and everyone has fun. They have devided the winnings so that more people have a chance of winning. I belive that the reason why IBS matchs are getting smaller, is do to cost. It is much cheaper to shoot club matchs, and many have paybacks. Wood is nice, but I would rather have cash.

With that said, I would say that the IBS needs to change its rules a bit, what needs to happen is to have matchs to get newer shooters interested. Where do most people start they usualy use a factory gun. A few sujestions would be, most new shooters like reactionary targets. maybe a factory class where shooters shoot lolly pops, paint balls, or billiard chalk. Keep these match short, and put them before the standard matchs, this alows people to have fun, and if they want to leave they can, but if they are interested in persuing this further they can learn, and not feel intimidated. The biggest thing I have found it getting new shooters involved, is they dont want to look like a fool, now we all know that this is precieved, as no one will make fun of them, but they feel on edge, and are afraid to shoot because of it. making things fast and fun, and shooting a target that doesn't point out errors as bad would get new interest, also haveing more events where people did not have to travel would be a great help. Promote it toward kids, maybe have a girls boys class. Look at a count fair, not evryone is into livestock raising, or high end horse racing, but there is other stuff geared towards kid, to maybe interest them in the future if they are so inclinded. But keep this to where parents can get involved, maybe make it a team sport, where you have a combined average.

Maybe add score to group like is done in 600 yard, and have a winner in both, and the same person can not win both. We use to have club match where we would shoot groups on a score target. For one it speeded up matchs, and two it saved on target cost, as we would shoot 3 shot groups on each target one target was 20 shots, insted of having an x count the tie breaker was group size. You could shot a couple of targets, calling each target a match, and pay out more often.

With this said I have no intention to change what we all have come to love, and enjoy, I think things done the way they are are a great things, but I believe that there needs to be a bit of variety, and something more aimed at involving new shooters, in addition to what we do. These matchs could be ran after yardages at the end of the day, to give shooters a break. (Kind of a tension breaker.)
 
Score and Long Range are not only doing well, if you consider the current economy and the relatively high cost to shoot BR I would say they are flourishing.

I concur with Dick on this.......
And also find it irritating when people think of Benchrest Shooting as only 100/200 group shooting.

Myself, I shoot the LR IBS600/1000 (did do some 100/200 back in the early 2000's) and see these disciplines growing well for the present economy. Except for the Colorado deal (a bad one that could have been avoided -IMO), and losing the VHA in SD, the IBS600/1000 are going better then ever, and the growth is obvious.
With that said, maybe the combined Group/Score aspects would work in short range as well........

Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran
 
Individuals exist that know how to promote benchrest group shooting. They are few, and quickly tire when they find themselves an army of one. We should help these individuals or better yet, become one. Group shooting, is what it is, and there is no other door but the front door. I personally believe that group shooting can become what it once was but DO NOT believe that it can become greater - simply because of the commitment necessary to be competitive. Not a big difference in what it WAS and is NOW.

If you disagree, OK, but I can say without reservation that if you're looking to the organiation officials to bring up the numbers, or a change in classes, or etc...you're looking too far away. Look within - it's the only viable success path.
 
Good point Wilber' Jerry had some too. I remember back whena factory remington 40xbr would be competative.
Sometimes the lack of cooperation from clubs can be a problem too. some match's conflict with other match's.
score matches the same week as group match. If you like both you have to choose. kind of nice in one way and not really good in other ways. There are X number of weeks to shoot and X number of $$$ to spend that come into play too.
all we can do is hope for the best at times.
 
I belive that the IBS despertly needs to have a factory class.

Patrick,
IBS encourages clubs to have a factory class. The problem with Having full blown registered matches for factory rifles is one of rule enforcement. It is just too difficult to ascertain if a rifle is truly factory. I was having a discussion with a fellow match director one time when he admitted to me he was selling a rifle with a custom barrel installed that was blued and lettered like original factory barrel. He was selling it because his wife had won too many "Factory Class" matches with it.

Dick
 
..........Ibs members can , just attend the winter annual meeting.

now that is pretty much a joke..and is just one more knife in thier back....
on line meeting..online voting........
yep if you live in the north east..you can afford to go..no one else can....so much for International bs...
mike in co
 
Patrick,
IBS encourages clubs to have a factory class. The problem with Having full blown registered matches for factory rifles is one of rule enforcement. It is just too difficult to ascertain if a rifle is truly factory. I was having a discussion with a fellow match director one time when he admitted to me he was selling a rifle with a custom barrel installed that was blued and lettered like original factory barrel. He was selling it because his wife had won too many "Factory Class" matches with it.

Dick
Where has integrity gone? A factory class should be a breeding ground for those that may wish to move up. This so called match director and his wife should very very ashamed and banned from being involved based on cheating and, on top of that, a match director's wife. Absolutely no excuse. And Dick, to be frank, as an IBS officer, I hope that you agree and will take the appropriate actions, if you haven't already. If a match director allows his wife to cheat in factory class, what else does he let slide that we don't know about, either for himself or someone else, in this class or another....it doesn't matter, this clown should be gone. Period!
 
now that is pretty much a joke..and is just one more knife in thier back....
on line meeting..online voting........
yep if you live in the north east..you can afford to go..no one else can....so much for International bs...
mike in co

We agree on this:eek:. To think an organization that touts using cutting edge, state of the art equipment is that far in the stone ages in terms of meetings and policy making is, well...ironic.
 
I believe the Factory class would help promote Benchrest and get more people involved. However, after co-running the Postal for 5 years (which has 4 clases - VFS, 6X, MF, F) I do not think the IBS or NBRSA should adopt a Factory Class. As stated above, rule enforement would be a nightmare and would cause many disagreements at matches. So...how can we have our cake and eat it too?

Mike Shapoval from Lincoln NE figured it out. He runs the Benchrest portion of the Lincoln Ikes Shooting Club. He holds regular Club matches and has many classes - one of which is a Factory Class. These club matches shoot the same IBS score targets. He also started holding IBS matches at the same range. At the IBS match, shooters are welcome to bring their factory guns, but will compete against the custom guns.

In short - he does both = he lets the "new" shooter shoot whatever gun they want in a match like format to get a taste of Benchrest. He also holds registered IBS matches on another day.

It is safe to say that attendance in IBS/NBRSA score shoots in Webster City, Kansas City, and Council Bluffs (IBS/NBRSA ranges within 4 hours of Lincoln) have increased. People like Mike Shapoval play an important piece to the "promoting puzzle".

Side note - Gotta put this in: Another piece of the puzzle is the 2 gun in Score.:cool:
 
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Proxy proxy proxy. you know nothing about the orginization'
Match director at any club can give their proxy for voteing at the winter meeting, so heres how it works if you can't attend or should I say won't attend. Have your views pesented by another director that has your proxy. He also has your voteing rights. I can see your not a director or had any contact with IBS as to the winter meeting proceedings Mike. Its very democratic every IBS member and every IBS club counts ask Jeff..
 
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