green laser

[Woody]

jazzy

As for me I stated earlier I have no intention of using a laser if it can't be done safely.

Well that's good but in an earlier thread you mentioned, "I too hope no one looks into it at the range." That implies to me that others are responsible for their own safety around your laser and that ain't going to work - whoever turns it on is responsible. We've got enough hope floating around here now, I long for a return to the days of responsibility and accountability.

Have you been to a big match to set flags? There are people walking around everywhere down range - it's just a mass of humanity. How you would ensure that people know there is a potential laser in operation in front of your bench? Does the range operator now have to ensure no one is using anything over X mW? I'll bet they really aren't looking for anything else to do during match weekend.

I'm all for a way to speed up setting flags but I hope anyone contemplating the use of lasers thinks this through. Competitors have enough stuff to think about at a match without worrying about their eyesight while walking around downrange.

 

[Vibe]

Makes my head hurt to think about it but if it bent the same both ways all would be equal.

Only if the target itself moved to stay aligned with the beam.

 

[LesWard]

It seems

that the laser would need to be aimed at the target during the no mirage phase, then as the mirage develops note and mark the movement on target.

For what its worth I have spent years using lasers to set up swiming pools,building foundations, bridges, etc. Depending on the accuracy required, would determine what time of day we would shoot grades.

It was very common to find (1/2" @ 300') errors between morning shots & afternoon shots. (Surveyor Lingo)
If my post seems inappropriate feel free to disregard/scrub.

Aloha Les

 

[zippy06]

I am thinking about this flag set up thing.
Getting the stuff together now.
I work with lasers at work. But, we weld sheet metal with ours.

I look all over Ebay. A little confusing.
So which laser is working?

 

[JJ-IA]

I do not understand why this entire thread would be appauling due to one childs misuse of equipment. The parents lack of supervision is what is appauling. Had the child been pointing a gun at everyone would every thread here be appauling? As for me I stated earlier I have no intention of using a laser if it can't be done safely. The set up I have tried has the laser mounted with a scope on a block of aluminum which is attacted to a tripod. The crosshairs of the scope are aligned with the target before the laser is ever turned on.
Thanks for bringing attention to the fact that childeren at matches need supervision.

I don’t want to be a kill-joy or anything, but here it is in a nutshell.

How can you “safely” fire a high-power, non eye-safe laser into a crowd of people setting flags?
And who’s going to be the first to carry one down-range and sweep 30+mw through someone’s scope objective while they‘re looking through it setting flags the old way?
95+% light transmission into a <2mm exit pupil with someone’s eye behind it?
Yea I’m sure some people out there will decide OUR risk is worth THEIR reward…
Too bad WE are only legally allowed <5mW eye safe lasers for this type of use, and even pointing one of them at a pilot, or the aircraft he’s in will get you a trip to jail.
It isn’t just kids that need supervision, and yes I find it appalling that so many would put others at risk so casually.

 

[Vibe]

that the laser would need to be aimed at the target during the no mirage phase, then as the mirage develops note and mark the movement on target.

For what its worth I have spent years using lasers to set up swiming pools,building foundations, bridges, etc. Depending on the accuracy required, would determine what time of day we would shoot grades.

It was very common to find (1/2" @ 300') errors between morning shots & afternoon shots. (Surveyor Lingo)
If my post seems inappropriate feel free to disregard/scrub.

Aloha Les

I find it very relevant to "this side" of the discussion.
Thank you.

 

[Vibe]

I don’t want to be a kill-joy or anything, but here it is in a nutshell.

How can you “safely” fire a high-power, non eye-safe laser into a crowd of people setting flags?

What are you doing allowing a "crowd" of people into your firing lane while you are setting flags in it? A laser mounted on YOUR bench, aimed at YOUR target, should not affect them in any way shape or form.(I've seen no mention of aiming one the other direction). It might be a good idea for YOU to be wearing laser safe eye protection, but unless they are wandering through your firing lane for some reason they would remain unaffected. I suppose it might be polite to let them know this ahead of time though.

 

[JJ-IA]

What are you doing allowing a "crowd" of people into your firing lane while you are setting flags in it? A laser mounted on YOUR bench, aimed at YOUR target, should not affect them in any way shape or form.(I've seen no mention of aiming one the other direction). It might be a good idea for YOU to be wearing laser safe eye protection, but unless they are wandering through your firing lane for some reason they would remain unaffected. I suppose it might be polite to let them know this ahead of time though.

How does anyone who’s walked downrange when a range was declared safe even reply to that?
Are you saying we cant trespass on someone else’s firing lane?
It’s very unfortunate that we have so many laws in this country (ones enforced by the police), but over the years I’ve come to understand why a good number of them exist.
No need an IBS, NBRSA or club rule change for this one, its already covered.

 

[Vibe]

How does anyone who’s walked downrange when a range was declared safe even reply to that?.

Good question.

Are you saying we cant trespass on someone else’s firing lane?.

Not really. Though I am asking "Why would you want to?". You yourself used the term "trespass", an indicatition that it would be something one should NOT do anyway.

 

[Jerry H]

Green lasers are the most effective way for settings flags quickly and precisely. A little common sense while they are in use may avoid any problems. A warning sign at the bench for the unaware would be a courteous thing to do. Also, staring at the sun is kind of dumb, so why would you stare into a laser. Even the lasers that can heat up a surface quickly, take a long time compared to an accidental glancing encounter. We are not talking about real cutting lasers here. The cheap high powered lasers are not the ones to use. These are the ones that advertise popping balloons and lighting matches at close range. They generally have poor divergence (beam spread). A green alignment laser(quite expensive) is much more suitable and as little as 40 mw is usable in bright daylight on a reflective surface, though more, is easier at 200 yards. The one I use is 80 mw and has a 1.5 inch visible corona (beam scatter) at 200 yards. At 12 inches, I cannot discern a rise in temperature on the palm of my hand with it as the beam is a couple of mm at the source already and as such, is not concentrated enough to burn something. People have been using these for years for more precise alignment of things and I have not heard of any eye damage with them. After using them for a couple of years, during my last eye exam I specifically asked for a check for any damage and there wasn't any. Green lasers are power rated quite differently than the traditional red type so you can't compare them in that regard anyway. There is a severe power loss in converting the light from red to green which is 5 times more visible to the eye. There are a few people using lasers at matches to set flags and the only complainer said he wished he had one. A few people look for any negativity in anything different than the norm. This is quite common in the benchrest community. The flag setting process would be a lot quicker if everyone had the use of one. Just a little care and awareness is all it takes for the use of this very effective tool. We are using much more dangerous things in our sport and have done very well over the years regarding injuries involving them by being careful and aware of our surroundings. If you decide to use one, make others aware of its use. Most don't stare at the sun and I don't think they will stare into a laser either, if they are aware of its presence.

 

[JJ-IA]

Not really. Though I am asking "Why would you want to?". You yourself used the term "trespass", an indicatition that it would be something one should NOT do anyway.

Vibe,
Because I’m a helpful happy go lucky kind of guy that often walks across the range to help friends & fellow shooters position their flags. Then someone usually walks across the range to help me position mine (while I‘m looking through my scope to check the height). But from this thread on, I’m guessing they’ll just offer me the use of their high-powered laser.

There are a few people using lasers at matches to set flags and the only complainer said he wished he had one. A few people look for any negativity in anything different than the norm. This is quite common in the benchrest community.
<snip>

Just a little care and awareness is all it takes for the use of this very effective tool. We are using much more dangerous things in our sport and have done very well over the years regarding injuries involving them by being careful and aware of our surroundings. If you decide to use one, make others aware of its use. Most don't stare at the sun and I don't think they will stare into a laser either, if they are aware of its presence.

Jerry
That’s like saying its ok to walk around with a loaded rifle between relays, as long as your careful, just make sure everyone knows about it.

I think the have-nots and complainers are going to win this one.
The only question is how many partially blind people, from commercial-use-only, and illegal eBay lasers, it will take for it to happen.

Staring into the sun is a bad example. Because non-commercial lasers are deemed “eye safe” for consumer use only if they allow your auto-defense reflexes to close your eyelid and protect your vision before harm can be done. Nothing in that FCC law would keep some idiot from taping his eyelids open and looking at a “eye-safe” laser until they were permanently blind.

I’m out for now, this thread isn’t going to help me one little bit at a match this weekend, but sometimes things need said and I’m sure others agree with me. Even if they don’t want to risk taking a friends new toy away.

 

[jazzy]

The point I was trying to make earlier is that a person would have to almost delibrately look into the laser to get a blast. They would have to be in line with my flags, they would have to position thier eye in exact alignment with the paddle of my flag and they would have to be between me and my bench.
Remember also that the beam diameter at 100 yards is less than 2 inches.

Something else that my concern people are the use of ropes and twine stretch from bench to 100 yards times the number of benchs. Thats alot of tripping hazards.

 

[jwa]

A couple years ago at St. Louis Benchrest club, Tom Rippee was using a laser to set flags and had rigged a remote control to turn it on and off. He would leave it off untill he was ready to place a flag, then turn it on long enough to locate his flag, then off untill the next one. This was at an ARA rimfire match but I think Tom shoots centerfire BR too.
Jerry

 

[zippy06]

Vibe,
Because I’m a helpful happy go lucky kind of guy that often walks across the range to help friends & fellow shooters position their flags. Then someone usually walks across the range to help me position mine (while I‘m looking through my scope to check the height). But from this thread on, I’m guessing they’ll just offer me the use of their high-powered laser.





Jerry
That’s like saying its ok to walk around with a loaded rifle between relays, as long as your careful, just make sure everyone knows about it.

I think the have-nots and complainers are going to win this one.
The only question is how many partially blind people, from commercial-use-only, and illegal eBay lasers, it will take for it to happen.

Staring into the sun is a bad example. Because non-commercial lasers are deemed “eye safe” for consumer use only if they allow your auto-defense reflexes to close your eyelid and protect your vision before harm can be done. Nothing in that FCC law would keep some idiot from taping his eyelids open and looking at a “eye-safe” laser until they were permanently blind.

I’m out for now, this thread isn’t going to help me one little bit at a match this weekend, but sometimes things need said and I’m sure others agree with me. Even if they don’t want to risk taking a friends new toy away.

JJ-ia.
You need some education on lasers.
I work with and repair 8000W CO2 lasers. We weld sheet metal. That is why gas mileage went up a few yrs ago. Cars and trucks are lighter. Not more fuel efficient. Big Defeatocrat lie.
Any safety glasses make you safe. With side Shields.
You are at a club on the firing line. You have to have safety glasses. You are now safe.
Prolonged looking at a green laser is going to be a problem. Maybe 5 min. worth.
The jerk in the parking lot is more dangerous.
After I buy one. I will email you the safety directions.

 

[JJ-IA]

I'm sure I do and I could be wrong, my comments were from 10+ year old memory, back when I was looking for a long range laser rangefinder and found that 5mW was it.
So don’t count on my memory, go here and check it out for yourselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety

The >5mW lasers talked about in this thread appear to fall under Class IIIb.
(even when some eBay clown intentionally breaks the law by putting a lower class sticker on them for the military(?), talk about red flags!)

Class IIIb
“Lasers in this class may cause damage if the beam enters the eye directly. This generally applies to lasers powered from 5–500 mW. Lasers in this category can cause permanent eye damage with exposures of 1/100th of a second or less depending on the strength of the laser.”

And:
“Eyewear must be selected for the specific type of laser, to block or attenuate in the appropriate wavelength range.”

And:
“A Class 2 laser is safe because the blink reflex will limit the exposure to no more than 0.25 seconds.”

But even the lowly Class 1 low power lasers have this warning:
“A Class 1M laser is safe for all conditions of use except when passed through magnifying optics such as microscopes and telescopes.”

<edit>
PS:
I hope you haven't been using clear OSHA safety glasses all those years when working on high powered lasers?

 

[jazzy]

Again, the laser is set up at the bench close to the rifle it is never set up at the target and pointed back at the bench. So no chance of the laser beam going threw the scope and into someones eye. Yes these lasers have a pressure switch for turning them on/off for the few short seconds it takes to set a flag.

 

[zippy06]

About the dumbest most inaccurate statement that I have ever read on this messageboard, by a professed expert.

Hi Don,
Which part don't you like????

 

[zippy06]

About the dumbest most inaccurate statement that I have ever read on this messageboard, by a professed expert.

Gee Dan.
As far as the lasers go. If there was a problem. MI-OSHA would shut us down.
MI-OSHA Actually gave my company an award today.
And there might be 200 blind people doing their jobs. In an unsafe manner. They are blind.

As far as Safety glasses required at the firing line. All of the ranges I have been to require Safety glasses and hearing protection.

And I am not an expert. Never claimed to be. Just a maintenance guy.
By the way. No thanks to taking my words out of context.

Maybe we are mixing apples and oranges. People are using green lasers. And other types. The military is using them.
If there was a major problem. We would not be talking about them. We would have heard by now of someone being injured.
The green laser issue goes back to 4.13.07. Earliest post on here.
Of course, all safety precautions should be followed.

 

[zippy06]

I'm sure I do and I could be wrong, my comments were from 10+ year old memory, back when I was looking for a long range laser rangefinder and found that 5mW was it.
So don’t count on my memory, go here and check it out for yourselves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety

The >5mW lasers talked about in this thread appear to fall under Class IIIb.
(even when some eBay clown intentionally breaks the law by putting a lower class sticker on them for the military(?), talk about red flags!)

Class IIIb
“Lasers in this class may cause damage if the beam enters the eye directly. This generally applies to lasers powered from 5–500 mW. Lasers in this category can cause permanent eye damage with exposures of 1/100th of a second or less depending on the strength of the laser.”

And:
“Eyewear must be selected for the specific type of laser, to block or attenuate in the appropriate wavelength range.”

And:
“A Class 2 laser is safe because the blink reflex will limit the exposure to no more than 0.25 seconds.”

But even the lowly Class 1 low power lasers have this warning:
“A Class 1M laser is safe for all conditions of use except when passed through magnifying optics such as microscopes and telescopes.”

<edit>
PS:
I hope you haven't been using clear OSHA safety glasses all those years when working on high powered lasers?

Yep. Been there 9 yrs. Standard S&W safety glasses. Now prescription for "the over 40 thing".
Only one accident. Operator was swinging from the beam tube. Tube fell out of bracket. The same operator had disabled the safety switch. Burned his fingers. They looked like burned hot dogs. They healed without a scar.

 

[zippy06]

More info. When welding with a laser. And adding Helium, argon, and nitrogen.
You make a plasma puddle. To look at this, a welding shield #10 lens, is required.