Getting back to weighing powder
- Thread starter Wilbur
- Start date
Lee, That was then, now with the new and better equipment we shoot smaller. I can remember in the 90's they never full length sized a PPC. Some even threw them away after the match. Long range 7" groups were a winner,now 2's, and 3's are aggs……. You have to keep improving your stuff…… jim
Lee Martin
Active member
You're probably right Jim. No doubt we've tightened up beyond 300 yards. That said, "zeros" dropped all the time in the Warehouse for 7 or 8 years. When certain guns went below 0.05" @ 100 yards on a semi-routine basis it's hard to say that was then and this is now. I think anyone would take performance like that in 2013....even in still conditions.
-Lee
www.singleactions.com
-Lee
www.singleactions.com
Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
Out of curiosity and for the benefit of those of us out here on Big Al's WWW, would you spell out the terms of your "short test"?
Lee, That is right, even my long range guns will shoot under a .1 @100 yds.That is with a 103 Spencer boat tail,RL-15 and a CCI 450 primer and the barrel has a 7.8 to1 twist. So i would guess the components are getting better and how we load is too. I think you will more attention to detail,and never second guess anything……. jim
Like you, I see Larry's test as being the same but different. The test I want to see is if anyone can pick a target fired with loads that differed in powder weight (.2gr) out of four or five targets - the others being fired with exactly weighed charges. Larry's test is the same in the respect that differing weighed charges can be seen in the tune of the rifle over several targets - which equates to the same but maybe easier to see. Would surely be easier to see if the groups formed in different locations - which would be information that would invalidate the test.
J
jamo002
Guest
What's a Column" in a barrell? Maybe I've been away too long!
I sure do have a few barrels that have been set aside for poor groups. Is the "Column" you refer to something that will improve these barrels?
Lee Martin
Active member
Here's a quick write-up on the Berger column:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/02/bergers-new-6mm-column-bullet-for-short-range-benchrest/
-Lee
www.singleactions.com
Stool, If you don't have a accurate and certified scale how can you be sure of anything. This is what i'm getting at,most don't have the equipment to know what they are loading. So how can you test anything with the variables, powder weight, neck tension and seating depth. You need to be precise on everything to a test…… jim
L
Lucky Shooter A
Guest
Don't handicap the shooter
I'd suggest you allow the shooter to find his preferred tune at the time-----and then load a batch of sighter rounds, with weighed charges, as closely as possible to the shooter's specified tune.
Then, "simulate" charge variations by loading weighed charges that vary by the amount Wilbur has specified. Just for curiosity, was the weight variation to be
+/- .2 gr or .2 gr extreme spread ?
You might even allow the shooter to use a "sighter round" for the first round of each record target.
A. Weldy
I'd suggest you allow the shooter to find his preferred tune at the time-----and then load a batch of sighter rounds, with weighed charges, as closely as possible to the shooter's specified tune.
Then, "simulate" charge variations by loading weighed charges that vary by the amount Wilbur has specified. Just for curiosity, was the weight variation to be
+/- .2 gr or .2 gr extreme spread ?
You might even allow the shooter to use a "sighter round" for the first round of each record target.
A. Weldy
You are correct sir, I started with a Harrell's measure and it's a good one, but if you don't weigh you don't know. When i shot short range i was told loading by volume is more accurate than weighing. When you move past two hundred yds. it is very easy to see, and at 1000 yds. you should stay home and save the barrel. I tried a digital scale, then a tuned balance beam scale and finally when to a GD 503 repeatability and .01 every time all year. Consistancy is what you need to be competitive at 1K, along with neck tension and seating depth. The proof is on the target, many will down play this but check the results and make your own decision. This will let you shoot small from 100 to 1000….. jim
Boyd Allen
Active member
Jim,
Do all of the factors that improve loads for 1,000 show up on a chronograph as well as targets?
Speaking now of short range, it may be that this ends up being about the width of tuning nodes, expressed in FPS, as well as where, within a node a test load is. If you happen to be working at the edge of a node, and variations in charge weight take you out of or off of it, then I think that they are likely to be seen on the target, but if one is near the center of a broad node, perhaps not. Also, depending on conditions, the variations could literally be lost in the wind. Another factor creeps in here. I believe that tuner shooters, including Mr. Buckys would say that one of the advantages, if not the major one, of tuners is that they broaden a node, so we may have a situation where if one is in the middle of the broadest possible node that what ends up mattering is different than if one is working at the edge, or with one that is significantly narrower.
As I am sure we are all aware, long range is preloaded, whereas short, for group almost never is. One of the reasons for this is that it is hard to precisely determine ahead of time precisely what charge weight will be the best at the start of any given aggregate. For this reason, some very good short range shooters have been known to go to the line with more than one load, and after testing on the sighter, choose one for the record target. Preloading for a test gives away this potential advantage, and not having it available may mean that a test is done with loads that are not as well tuned as they could be.
All in all, perhaps the best answer to be had on this subject will be found by determining the width of a typical node, in velocity, and then testing to see if thrown charges can reliably stay within this node. A major factor in this will be the grain size and shape of the powder used. I would say that since Gary Ocock has shot all of his records, including several unlimited aggregates, with thrown charges of powders that are smaller than 133, that the main question to be answered is what can be done with 133.
Boyd
Do all of the factors that improve loads for 1,000 show up on a chronograph as well as targets?
Speaking now of short range, it may be that this ends up being about the width of tuning nodes, expressed in FPS, as well as where, within a node a test load is. If you happen to be working at the edge of a node, and variations in charge weight take you out of or off of it, then I think that they are likely to be seen on the target, but if one is near the center of a broad node, perhaps not. Also, depending on conditions, the variations could literally be lost in the wind. Another factor creeps in here. I believe that tuner shooters, including Mr. Buckys would say that one of the advantages, if not the major one, of tuners is that they broaden a node, so we may have a situation where if one is in the middle of the broadest possible node that what ends up mattering is different than if one is working at the edge, or with one that is significantly narrower.
As I am sure we are all aware, long range is preloaded, whereas short, for group almost never is. One of the reasons for this is that it is hard to precisely determine ahead of time precisely what charge weight will be the best at the start of any given aggregate. For this reason, some very good short range shooters have been known to go to the line with more than one load, and after testing on the sighter, choose one for the record target. Preloading for a test gives away this potential advantage, and not having it available may mean that a test is done with loads that are not as well tuned as they could be.
All in all, perhaps the best answer to be had on this subject will be found by determining the width of a typical node, in velocity, and then testing to see if thrown charges can reliably stay within this node. A major factor in this will be the grain size and shape of the powder used. I would say that since Gary Ocock has shot all of his records, including several unlimited aggregates, with thrown charges of powders that are smaller than 133, that the main question to be answered is what can be done with 133.
Boyd
Boyd, I won my first short range match with a borrowed gun and pre loaded…… shooting over a chronograph and using trimmed and pointed Spencer bullets weighed charge of 33.305 of RL-15, neck tension of .002 30 lbs. seating force and seating depth with in .0005 and they are jumped .004 and the ES is 3 SD is 0, but this will change with the conditions but never goes out of the single digits. Vertical is minimal…… jim
Boyd Allen
Active member
Jim,
How many short range matches have you shot pre loaded? BTW before I forget, congratulations on the win. I did not say that it had not been done, or that it could not be successful, just that it is not generally done. If a preload is a good match for contitions, there is no reason that one cannot do well with it, but if the guess about what conditions are going to be turns out to be wrong, IMO you will be screwed. If you can do this over and over, in all sorts of weather and at different ranges, then something will have been proven about their being no need to load at matches, but until then, successes like yours will continue to be rare. Now, getting back to my question, did all the improvements that you made to your ammo show up as lower ESSs' If they did, including more precise charge weights, then this might end up being better done with a chronograph rather than a target, once the velocity limits of a node are known. Afterthought: Wow, That was precise load info. I may have to get some RL 15 and try it out. What were the ambient conditions like? How do you measure seating force? Not that it matters much, but have you run it over a chronograph? What caliber, bullet weight and twist? Added later: Group or score? Rifle weight?
Boyd
How many short range matches have you shot pre loaded? BTW before I forget, congratulations on the win. I did not say that it had not been done, or that it could not be successful, just that it is not generally done. If a preload is a good match for contitions, there is no reason that one cannot do well with it, but if the guess about what conditions are going to be turns out to be wrong, IMO you will be screwed. If you can do this over and over, in all sorts of weather and at different ranges, then something will have been proven about their being no need to load at matches, but until then, successes like yours will continue to be rare. Now, getting back to my question, did all the improvements that you made to your ammo show up as lower ESSs' If they did, including more precise charge weights, then this might end up being better done with a chronograph rather than a target, once the velocity limits of a node are known. Afterthought: Wow, That was precise load info. I may have to get some RL 15 and try it out. What were the ambient conditions like? How do you measure seating force? Not that it matters much, but have you run it over a chronograph? What caliber, bullet weight and twist? Added later: Group or score? Rifle weight?
Boyd
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Boyd, The info. is what i use now, When i shot short range was in the mid 90's. At my age i have a tuff time remembering what i did yesterday. i can remember it was Benchmark and Dave Shorts 661/2 gr. bullets and it was his PPC. That was then and now i think i got 30 points this year with the Dasher and the way i load from my short range experience and adjusted to 1000 yds. Till you shoot both you can not see the refinement it takes at long range but you can use your table manners from short range. I use free recoil very similar to what most use at short range. Tracking is paramount, or you are history. My wind reading skills acquired on the Marine Corps team help a lot. My sight is failing and i try to pass on what i found worked, because for me there may not be a next year. I battled reamer problems most of the year and then my gun fell apart and i survived that to still 4 IBS. records, so this is no BS……….. jim
Boyd Allen
Active member
Jim,
I did not mean to seem as if I doubted what you wrote at all. I was just looking for answers. I believe that there are things about short and long range that are the same, and things that are different, and would never pretend that I knew anything about long range other than what I have read from good sources such as yourself.
Boyd
I did not mean to seem as if I doubted what you wrote at all. I was just looking for answers. I believe that there are things about short and long range that are the same, and things that are different, and would never pretend that I knew anything about long range other than what I have read from good sources such as yourself.
Boyd
David Halblom
Flying Fish Fundamentals
And I, for one,
have to agree w/ Butch. There is a lot of the 600/100 yard game that is not anything that we do in the point-blank range. But is it irrelevant, HELL no, to 600/100 yard shooters. And we pointblank shooters need to look at it and analyze it.