Gap space, and that dirty little corner

i am new to this forum...6mmbr is my prior learning site. after reading tony boyer's book and getting my hawkeye, i looked in my chambers...CARBON RINGS! i tried hand twisting nylon brushes to no avail. i found a brush made by hoppe's that looks like brass but is a stiff plastic. i put it on a long aluminum cleaning rod, put a little jb and drop of cleaning solution, inserted into neck of chamber and felt it fitting snugly( a 6mm brush in a .22 cal chamber), and spun slowly using a b&d variable speed drill. i tried to keep it in the chamber, not into freebore part of barrel, definitely not into throat. dry patched then borescoped and could see that some of the ring remained...more of spinning and eventually this area was CLEAN! my new guns clean up quickly since i do this after every shooting session. this carbon ring is HARD. powder residue repeatedly exposed to temps in the thousands and it gets baked!
 
Well guys,
Last night I started doing the tests I referred to in earlier post #17.
I took fired primers and used those and also the additional carbon that came from cleaning the primer pockets.
I used 6 products. 3 regular rifle cleaning products Butches, Boretech Eliminator and Wipe out with the accelerator.
2 automotive products made by Sea Foam and on hmmmm maybe it might work product called Goof Off.
I put 8 primers in a stainless steel cup and added a little of the carbon for good measure and let them soak for 30 minutes.
What I found was that none of the products had any effect whatsoever on any of the primers nor the loose carbon.

To say I was surprised is an understatement.
I got on the internet and started looking for a solvent that would "dissolve" carbon.
What I found in general on a lot of chemistry sites and others is that no normal solvents available to the public can actually "dissolve" carbon.
There were a lot of different but mostly concurring articles and posts on various sites that says carbon itself (like a diamond) cant just be dissolved.
It was explained that "carbon" in engines is also mixed with "gunk" and the mixture can be altered and moved out of the engine but that the same cleaners would not affect regular carbon....
It appears from one article that the carbon in our guns can only be removed by brushing and that some of the chemicals can help "break it up" but can not dissolve it.

Now I have to start all over and try the experiment and try a little minor brushing and see what might work with the least amount of work.
edit:
I will also try some more cleaners that were listed as possibilities.
 
I think that the hard carbon that we may (I have not had the problem with normal brush and patch cleaning of 133 fouling.) have difficulty with when cleaning rifle barrels, has more in it than just the carbon, that it is a matrix of carbon and other combustion products that may be softened when soaked with certain chemicals, to the point where brushing (bronze brush) may become effective in removing it. One product worth trying for this is Carb Out. I believe that Mr. Boyer has used it to reduce his dependence on abrasives to get barrels clean.
 
Boyd I figured that the actual powder residue that we generally call carbon has more to it than just pure carbon and like the engine gunk something should be able to get rid of it.
Any idea how I can create powder carbon to work with?
I have thought about taking some old powder thats been in the cabinet for 8 years and burn it in a metal bowl. Think that would work?
Carb out was originally on my list but I dont have any yet. Its made by the same people that make Wipe Out and Patch out.
As I remember all 3 of those products claim to be able to remove carbon and/or copper with just a patch. Which is sort of what I was looking for in the "dissolving" process.
 
I don't think that the pressure of the bullet on the bore and the combustion pressure can be easily replicated. What you need are varmint shooters with chronic cleaning problems, that shoot long strings between cleanings with a dirty powder. If you simply volunteer to do their end of trip cleaning, and tell them that you want the barrels to be really dirty, I am sure that you will have no lack of volunteers. :D
 
AS a secondary observation...
We generally say that silver primers are either steel or brass cups....
The primers I was punching last night were 205Ms.
I went to pick them up with a magnet to separate them from the powdered carbon,,,, they are not steel.
What are they?
 
Vern said:
Boyd I figured that the actual powder residue that we generally call carbon has more to it than just pure carbon and like the engine gunk something should be able to get rid of it.
Any idea how I can create powder carbon to work with?
I have thought about taking some old powder thats been in the cabinet for 8 years and burn it in a metal bowl. Think that would work?
Carb out was originally on my list but I dont have any yet. Its made by the same people that make Wipe Out and Patch out.
As I remember all 3 of those products claim to be able to remove carbon and/or copper with just a patch. Which is sort of what I was looking for in the "dissolving" process.
Click to expand...



Keep in mind you are are trying to dissolve an element. This can’t be done.

As has already been stated, solvents only work if the carbon is mixed with something the solvent will dissolve. After repeated exposure to high temperature and pressure, most of the solvents have been burned away (in the carbon ring) and the carbon atoms are likely fused to other carbon atoms.

This will make the removal of the ring very difficult with anything but mechanical means.

By that I don't mean a screw driver..............the atoms must be removed by something and carried away.

Jim
 
i clean to bare steel...part of my ocd personality. i read everything i can on cleanings solutions and techniques. i modified ed's red cleaning solution and it gets the powder residue out in a hurry. the "baked on" carbon is different. 50,000 psi plus and 2000-4000 degrees f is almost making diamonds? a bronze brush with a little solvent , in time, will start to get the stuff to come out. abrasive paste work and do take away a little steel also. i am currently trying a "home brew" and it seem to work. i add industrial strength ammonia solution to some jb bore paste, without the small granular-like particles. i mash and mix until the jb is clouding the ammonia. let this sit overnight and it gels! shake and add some more ammonia until thickness is "just right" and will come out of one of the 4 0z sinclair solvent bottles. i use this stuff after powder residue is out and it amazes me to see black marks on the patch that represent the 4 grooves of my kreigers. then i see 8 very linear lines that must represent the angles of the lands meeting the grooves. i line up consecutive patches and the colors get lighter until patches are white! i don't know if this stuff has a shelf life, but it's easy to make and doesn't seem to adversly affect stainless...i left some on a barrel piece overnight. anyway, the chemistry eludes me, but the results please me.
 
Another interesting discovery

I have been looking for something to dissolve carbon better than what we currently have.
I tested some various chemicals on spent primers. I was not impressed with the results.

Yesterday I was running some cases through the sonic cleaner and had just added soap.
After a few cycles I noticed the primer pockets and necks were not getting clean like usual so I wondered what I had forgotten. Then I remembered that I usually add a couple of table spoons of vinegar.
I stopped it and added vinegar and ran 2 more 8 min cycles and they were clean.

I started trying to do some more research and found some guys cleaning pistons with regular bottled ammonia. I figured I would give the primers another try. Not bad had some reactions. Took a qtip to a primer and most of the carbon just wiped away.
Then I remembered the vinegar from yesterday and decided to try that after just a few minutes I pulled a primer and noticed a big difference. I took a qtip to it and wow all the carbon was gone and it was even shinny.
Just wanting to make sure it was not a fluke (though I know this has not been a viable scientific test) I tried water. Needless to say it didnt do anything.

I think Ill try the vinegar on a few more tests and see how that works.
Then I think I need to find some stronger vinegar maybe.
I know how to turn it into a gel.

If anyone else has tried this let me know.
 
Thanks for that Boyd.
Remember I am trying to find some way of more easily cleaning the carbon out of the chamber/barrel.
But now I understand better why Ammonia works on copper.
 
When you mix vinegar and ammonia don't you get a granular salt precipitate? Ammonium Acetate?

al
 
NOOO
I never mixed the vinegar and ammonia together.
It was to separate tests.
I always use some vinegar in the ultrasonic with some dish soap. Having forgotten it and the carbon not coming off of the brass made me remember the vinegar. So I tried it by itself on the carbon from the primers like I did in the last batch of tests.
Seems to work really good so far.
 
Vern..I'ved used an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner since the late 80's To clean Brass.using hot water and White vinegar. To polish it,I Make a paste using white vinegar and salt and paper towels. It polishes brass without leaving a lot of black tarnish residue. I saw the old folks use this mixture to clean brass lamps, a long time ago. We used nothing but hoppes#9 and a wire brush to clean the stubborn carbon buildup off revolver cylinders. Sometimes it took a little effort,depending how bad the buildup was. I really enjoyed cleaning that stuff off those cylinders,almost as much as I like turning brass.:D

I would think that A tight fitting bronze brush with Hoppes or some other Carbon remover solvent should work sufficiently in Rifle chambers to remove carbon buildup.

I wish you success in your search for a workable formula.


Glenn
 
At one time, I fired a lot of primed cases, no powder or bullets. I don't recall what my purpose was now. What did happen was
for 4-6 inches in the barrel , the deposits from the primers alone was miserable to remove. It defied nearly everything I tried and
eventually went away with a lot of elbow grease. It stands in my mind that what we call carbon may well be traced to
primers, rather than powder although its less prevalent when cases contain powder and bullets. For that matter, what we call carbon
may not actually be carbon. It could be melted glass or whatever is in your favorite primer.
 
Bob I have often wondered about that.
If thats the case I would surely like to know what was in each primer and would certainly choose one that worked in my ppc over one that had glass or some other thing of that sort.
 
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