Future of the Air Gun Bench Rest Games

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Wayne Burns

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Recent threads have caused me to wonder where our sport might be going..

There seems to be a strong warning coming from one of our most experienced air gun guy, LD, that if we put all our eggs in the “Postal’ matches basket, the game will be lost in the long run.

Instead of sniping personal comments attacking each other, maybe we should consider the ideas presented here.

Do we lose something by making it too easy to compete from afar… and can ANY postal match really be called a “completion”. I personally see postal matches as “just another reason to get some shooting in” .. but not a “real completion”, instead an interesting comparison. Any reason to shoot is good for me. But…

“Shoulder to Shoulder” matches are for sure more real comparisons since conditions are more the same, although there is still differences between which bench one shoots on… and even which relay one shoots in on that day.. but still a better way to “test” the competitors.
Not only is this a better way to test competitors, “shoulder to shoulder”, matches also provide a communion of folks with common interests. Coming together to discuss issues and just in general BS about air guns and the shooting sports over good food and drinks, is the real loss, and the one that may cause the long term downfall of our sport.

I personally feel we can have a combination of the too, but I think we really need to focus more on local matches and get more of them happening. I’d like the postal matches to be a combination of at least three different location outdoor matches. These matches might not be real competitions when we mail in the cards, but they are real for the shooters at that local match. And collecting that info and comparing it on a world wide basis should be good for growing the sport overall. It's still exciting to see what other folks are doing across the waters or even in your own country, even though it's not a true comparison.

That would take developing more places to shoot close to where you already shoot, and attracting more shooters to these matches. How would we do that? What are your ideas about this? Let’s focus on these questions and stop sniping at each other please.. How can that be good for the sport in anyway? While you consider these questions, I'll be shooting at our local match today.. I'll check for comments tonight:)

Wayne Burns,
Match Director,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
 
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Shoulder to shoulderand postal combined offers some the only opportunity to shoot.

Wayne,

In the fourth largest city in the U.S it is hard to get a few to shoot Bench Rest Air Rifle. I shoot at Three clubs one over 100 miles from home. Lots of FT shooters there and little or no interest in any thing but.
One of the Houston clubs ( the second largest has 10 or so silhouette shooters.) I do not consider them air gunners as they only shoot airguns for another opportunity to shoot them little animals. They shoot High Power and Rimfire and airguns on the side. My hope is to keep showing up at the one Rimfire Bench Rest match and score well with a high power air gun, and show that precision accuracy is available for less that .20 cents a shot. I would guess in Texas that there might be 10 air gun bench guys. The travel distance for most would require couple of tanks of gas and a Motel room. If some one could find a club that would host a match at a central location I would travel.

My best plan is to use USBR or the World org. to get my main club to allow a scheduled combo rimfire and air gun match. I hope to get some of the rimfire guys to cross over as some of other clubs have done.

Postal matches are never a true competition.... I agree. When we had close to a hundred shooters around the world, in the IFP game, it was assumed that over time that conditions would average some. That of course does not eliminate the variations of the different club ranges. As we know ( often one bench provides better or worse conditions... thus bench rotation.

My slogan in life not just shooting is "COMPETE AND DO IT WITH WHAT YOU'VE GOT !"

The other is Build it and they will come. If we can schedule a couple of major events a year as do the FT, and Silhouette guys I will come.

Bob
 
Boy Howdy-where did all the airgun shooters go??? but as far back as 1987 rim fire .22 has been the the most shot matches in fact when we went back to the BR-50 in Tex.1993 the air guners where out numbered 100 to one...so it looks like nothing has changed...we will still shoot benchrest hear and also airgun silhouettes.. postals ??? good luck..H.B.
 
WRABF Prespective AIR RIFLE BENCHREST is growing.

Wow Wayne that is some headline, i think it's time for me to step in and share my thoughts. Firstly your headline, the future of the WRABF Air Rifle World Championship is very strong, since the world champs we have 3 other countries join up.

In Aus we are now starting to schedule matches and have the qualifying match for next years World Postal set for the first weekend in December down in Melbourne. A few are also now starting to tool up for LV and some of us are also getting HV Air Rilfes so we can get up to speed in that class also.

Regarding Postals at world level we have them each year except the World Championship year, it is not a true and fair indication i agree as we are all shoting in vastly different conditions BUT it is a guide on how you are going and more importantly it is a great way to continue or start relationships and friendships between people from all over the world.

From the outside looking in it seems to me USA politics and personal agendas are getting in the way again and complicating something that is really a bit of fun and pretty simple. )chill(
 
More Airgun Benchrest matches

Wayne, you already know my latest idea regarding the encouragement of more matches in the Western areas, but I'll reiterate here:

My observation after about fifty years of airgun shooting in Socal is there are very few public ranges open that encourage airgun bench shooting, primarily because it doesn't mesh well with firearm shooting on the same line, and also because there is little incentive for them to consider it.

Now, I know there are lots of guys with air rifles that might like to try benchrest style shooting with a few buds, and who might even shoot against their fellow clubbies in the FT gang, IF there were a convenient place for them to shoot that had benches!

I've shot at the San Diego range a number of times ... its a Police pistol range with NO permanent proper benches, but Howard and Charlene, with lots of help from fellow "want to shoot benchrest friends" got together and made some adaptations to fit existing firing line fixtures that create in essence, a benchrest line. This creative adaptation may be the spark that got me thinking, but it was the recent Arizona event that told me the truth ... where there is a place to shoot that is friendly to airgunners, they will come and shoot once they learn about it! Charlene and Howard get decent, regular attendance at their events, and I think lots of other places here in Socal and other populated areas would too, IF safe places of even thirty-five yards square can be located and nurtured by a few dedicated airgunners.

So, my idea is to encourage the construction and use of PORTABLE benches and target stands suitable for bench shooting that can be owned by the individuals, and even by clubs. This allows use of many open areas that are relatively undeveloped as ranges, yet can provide a nearly impromptu match location by simply marking a shooting line and placing the target stands at 25yards, meters, or farther if available. I would suspect some shooters with no purpose-built Benchrest range anywhere near might have a large yard or know of an open space the can get permission to shoot on, and might then be able to hold some small matches by getting their buds to each make or buy a bench and target stand. A cooler for drinks and a picnic table, plus an Easy-up for shade, and a trash bag to keep it clean, and suddenly you have the fixings for regular competitions!

The concept of portable benches, used in conjunction with simple non-mechanical front rests might allow Silhouette and Field Target Clubs to hold regular "mini-matches" on their sight-in lines using their normal guns, thus giving them a chance to participate in another related airgun sport as well as improve their wind doping skills. Perhaps once interest is piqued, "standalone Benchrest matches" could ensue, who knows?

Anyhow, I feel the development and availability of good, solid yet lightweight takedown benches and simple, inexpensive standardized target stands would be good first step in encouraging the startup of new airgun benchrest clubs and venues.

I got a slow start at my range because I went in the opposite direction initially, pouring semi-permanent concrete benches and setting them in an open field on my property to hold fifty yard shoots. I now feel we might have been better off to start our club using portable benches.
 
Hi LD,

Yes, I do agree that's a great plan to get the most people excited about bench rest and all air gun games. I'm learned quickly, that having some good food around helps a lot too. "Shoot what ya got" is the only way to go... and now we have this great "open class" and drop in guys are actually in the game with out of the box guns, a block of wood and a couple sand bags.. just ask Dan Brown.

I'm working on our designs and some prototypes for some strong portable benches... and researching local warehouse space for weekend event rentals. Inviting the warehouse owner to shoot a $2,000 air gun and eat some good food, as HE gets to know some new folks, who also want to rent his 100 meter long warehouse on weekends.. That's my plan... what's your's guys?

Wacky Wayne,
Match Director,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
 
Bill,

With all due respect, your comment is the most negative of any so far. The discussion is positive.... someone has their shorts in a knot. We are looking for ways to improve our game, to have more shoulder to shoulder matches. We are not tying to change or eliminate postal competitions. It is all we have now, we are looking for more shoulder to shoulder matches here in OUR COUNTRY. I think your comment of politics and personal agendas is way out of place. I would take the same offense if someone was messing in your sand pile, as I am with you messing in ours. I am smiling.

Bob
 
Bill,

I think there are two topics here that COULD be converging, but that are DIVERGING. One is over postal matches, the other about more Americans shooting benchrest at all. As I perceive the undercurrents of many of the regulars here, some see airgun benchrest as MOSTLY being done under the umbrella of an Official Organization, with only those shooters scores who are members having ANY validity. While others are being turned off by possible castigation of not "joining up" or being "on the inside". There was a HUGE State match that hosted a sideshoot, and this Org's founder laughed at the "oversized targets" ... talk about unity?

Can you imagine, the highest Officer has repeatedly said I know nothing, and I that did poorly in the Worlds Match because my gun design was no good, yet I took fourth place in HV, and Seventh overall, while both he and his partner never even bothered to show up for the event, nor explain their absence? The "President" calling most shooters in the country "rogue shooters" because they don't do exactly as he feels they should? No, I don't ascribe to NEEDING to belong to an organization that is so short sighted as to be publically denigrating small clubs trying to promote the sport, and I feel the very promotion of such an organization as the current one is detrimental to the overall growth of airgun bench shooting over here.

Because to the "exclusive nature" of the official organization being developed mostly here on this Forum, whose officials DO tend to denigrate and attempt to downplay any actions by non-members, some of us, myself included, feel we would be better served to focus more on the spreading the word about the GAME itself rather than attempting to politicise it.

Bill, I met you and like you. i think you are a good guy, and I enjoyed shooting with you and your team at the recent World Championship match, and feel you have done a wonderful job in helping to promote the sport. I was really impressed by your actions at that match, esp when I saw you holding daily pre-match meetings in the Hotel Lobby every morning ... something OUR team for sure never got. But this discussion is an important one of a different nature, because I truly DO think that for us, focus on postal events as the end-all, rather than jut one possible facet of it will give the sport a sort of, well, "nerdy connotation" that might put a damper on its overall growth in this country.

I hope to one day the emergence of totally INCLUSIVE regional organization that will put together open enrollment Championships, and perhaps from that lead onto a true large National Event, but I see the postal activities as sidebars to the game.

All that said, due to the totally different way shooting sports are viewed and handled in your and many other more socialist countries, its likely the way you are doing it is better for you guys, I dunno. For sure ANY form of airgun shooting is good, in the final analysis.
 
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Gentlemen: my short response is i have no plan or issue with what happens in the USA that is for you guys to sort out, my response was to Waynes title of the thread. If it said future of the USA Air Gun i wouldnt have touched it.
 
Larry,

No one can doubt the wealth of your experience. It goes far beyond what most of us can ever hope for.

However, all of that expertise comes at a high cost. You are abrasive and condescending and, naturally, complain the loudest. You were invited to help with developing this “exclusive” organization and then refused to allow your range to be sanctioned. Before the World Championship, you complained about your relays, when everyone else recognized it was a random selection process. At the match you had an altercation with another team member and now, find fault with the team captain for not having daily pre-match meetings in the hotel lobby. When you returned home, you continued to denigrate the venue, organizers, other team members and finally, the volunteers doing the scoring. Confronted with this, you maintained your innocence and refused to apologize. Later, you had to be reminded of this organization's mission, the website and the fact that there is no “president” or “boss”, as if it had never been explained to you. You make it impossible for other shooters to work with you. The undercurrents you perceive are well earned.

Anyone can find quotes from you that not only do nothing to promote the sport but run it into the ground. The one best remembered is that air rifle benchrest is a “backwater” sport.

For you to imply that your way is the better way is laughable because your way is the ONLY way. Calling postal matches a “nerdy connotation” could only be your way of promoting the sport. You want to encourage more shooters to use bags while you use a customized air rifle and a mechanical rest, not to mention those 15,000 miles of fuel. Talking out of both sides of your mouth will serve you well as a future factory shooting team member for FX.

You say the right words, “spreading the word about the GAME itself rather than attempting to politicise it.” but your actions are “all about US!”. Actions absolutely speak louder than words, which is why you went to South Carolina and others stayed home.

Please, start a regional organization and do what you think is best.
 
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Keep it down. While nobody's is using the words "your momma wears combat boots," you are turning this forum into a place where all you're talking about is how much you dislike each other.

I'm not sure how Wilbur feels about that, it's his call.

I do know that if I had even a whim of interest in air rifle shooting (I did), it is gone. Who wants to become a part of organizations & hang and people who just complain about each other? Been there. Three or four times.

If you think your situation unique, I would remind you many of us have been through the NBRSA versus IBS wars, the IBS & NBRSA versus Williamsport wars, and a couple regional battles. The are pretty much resolved now, but it cost us significantly in membership and more than one range lost. Of course, these battles were always amongst those in "leadership" positions; the bill was paid by the shooters themselves.

I suspect Wilbur will not want BR Central to facilitate that.

Personally, I hate being in the position of giving infractions & deleting posts. If you skip all the fears & headaches about misusing power -- a charge that is ALWAYS flung at moderators -- it still involves reading a lot of crap to try & determine just how bad a post really is. Sort of like being compelled to watch soap operas. You try it.
 
Thanks Charles,

Well said. I wish we could all let go of our ego stuff and just focus on what it takes to get more people involved in having fun with each other while we shoot some bulls. That's what most folks want, even if they can't make it happen on their own.

Wayne Burns,
Match Director,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
 
Wayne,

This is a classic case where it should be clear that we all need to agree to disagree.

As far as the ego stuff, I am not having a good day, so an infraction or another banning would be welcome. The filter is definitely turned off right now.

You should be nominated for sainthood after 6,000 miles driving with your friend. My fervent hope is that he starts this "inclusive" organization so I can join and B****, moan and groan about anything and everything I don't like or even care about.
 
Bill,

You're right about my title... and, I'm glad you chimed in. I'm glad to hear that Aus. is not having a problem adding new shooters, or loosing the ones they have.

When it looks like it's not fun to join a group, because they are fighting instead of having fun playing games together, then growing a sport won't happen. LD's concern it seems to me, is that if it's too easy to stay home and only be involved in postal matches, then new shooters won't be joining... and existing shooters will eventually fall off, as the contests loose their meaning or importance.
It's not always easy to communicate about these issues. Politely agreeing to disagree would be welcome on this forum. Personal attacks are not good for the sport, the attackers, or the attacked. It only feels good as it's being written, while one is dumping angry feelings. That's a good thing, but do it on blank paper for your own good, don't share it with others please.

Wayne
 
Gentlemen?

I can not for the life of me understand how all of this turned sour. A request for ideas to try and get the bench rest game to more shoulder to shoulder competition in the U.S. Some positive input and then all the negative input. None of this stuff serves any side............. if there are sides. What's up here?

Probably the most successful of the air gun games is Field Target, an International Sport Where Member Countries run their own game with one major World Championship is held under rules agreed upon by member countries. Discussions in this group often go as sour as this, over how classes are set up etc. I most certainly am against any personal attacks in these discussions. The main thing that keeps some sanity is the fact that the Local Club and their Match Director are in charge. The final say is up to the Match Director. He creates a venue that is for the locals and all of the politics are put aside. The Rules only apply if the match is a major one such as the Nationals or Worlds events.

A forum is where ideas and proposals can be brought forward and discussed. How boring if all the reply's were, Neat, That's Great, Fantastic, I agree and WOW!

One old mans opinion from well over 50 years of shooting competition in every major discipline except shotgun.

Bob
 
I'm very new to this

but I will say this, When I first saw a person shooting an air rifle from a bench I thought, wow, this is interesting and looks to be fun. I have been running CF Benchrest matches for a couple of years and will run some Rimfire matches next season as well. I also asked for and was awarded three Air Rifle Match Dates. Don't know how they will go but until they are offered, we won't know how they will go.

When one consideres the price of RF ammo these days vs the cost of good pellets I can see where there may be some interst. I am looking forward to the coming season. Matches must be made available for this or any shooting sport to take root and/or grow. Just talking about it doesn't get much done. It's fine to be just a shooter but someone has to actually step up and run matches for there to be any.
 
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Good Luck Pete! If I'm reading correctly, you already have a range available, so you are likely to be 80% there, as it seems the hardest thing is the place to shoot, then, as you say, the guy to run the match. I dunno if there are many airgunners in Main, but I've heard rimfire BR guys are drawn to airguns lately due to less expensive ammo costs.
 
Pete,
I will help out with your shoots. Love it as Capital City is only 15 miles from my summer camp.
Picture of covered range with 10 moveable benches. Nice 50 yard range.

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Paul
 
Hi Pete can you give as much lead time on the dates of your shoots as you can, as I plan on traveling to shoots as much as I can this summer . Thanks Rick
 
I'm with BobZ - what's up here?

I'm not making a comment - I'm actually asking for somebody to explain what the problem is specifically.
 
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