Full length sizing

longshooter.

Yes. that is correct. The die is creating a longer radius(for those just joining us it is a standard 300 WBY). The area where the body meets the sholder (the first radius), is definatly pushed back. The headspace has INCREASED in this area. This is where my headspace gauge measures the brass. Like I said, I have bumped the sholder as much as .007 (to much) in this area. The area just above where the sholder meets the strait part of the neck (the 2nd radius) is longer(pushed forward) or headspace has DECREASED in this area. The whole radius area is longer on the FL sized brass( less steep).

Also, running the brass through the collet die did not change the "feel" of resistance when closing the bolt on sized brass, and said brass fit in the top of his die all the way to the belt after running them through his die. I definatly DECREASED the size of the brass in this area. This just wasn't the problem (on these brass, anyway).

I think that the "off the shelf" die is not the answer. This is where my cheap ass could have saved some time and agrivation....can you say...CUSTOM DIE....:eek:

I am sorry if my expination is a little fuzzy. My falure to properly grasp the English language, along with my minimal technical skills and lack of the proper terminoligy is making this harder than it should be.

If this problem isn't fixable, would I be better off neck sizing until I get a new die, or should I just put up with a little "resistance" when closing the bolt?

Also, I hope my disagrement on some ot the answers given isn't p*ssing anyone off......not my intention at all.

Thanks again,
Tod
 
Larry Willis said:
Tod,

Well . . . . we all understand the need for buying a new rifle. (In fact, I've had that "need" many times myself.) However, you have a resizing problem here, that's very easy to solve. You didn't mention if you FL resized your case before (or after) using the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die. This is mentioned (step 3) in the instructions, and it makes a BIG difference. I'm sure we're missing some small piece of information like that.

Reading all of the previous posts would take an hour, and I haven't got that much time. I'd like to help you solve the problem, but without seeing your cases - it's all just guess work. Solving this problem might help another shooter out there.

The tolerance of reloading dies today is outstanding, and I've NEVER seen a single FL sizing die that needed to be cut down. If shortening your FL die helps, then your particular chamber is cut unusually short (out of spec.). This is extremely rare with production rifles, because manufacturers know that their rifles need to chamber ALL factory loads - even the longest rounds that are still within spec. That leads me to wonder . . . . Who chambered your rifle?

- Innovative
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not new rifle...just a couple of new BBls for next season. My tube will have 1250 rounds worh of 5 & 10 shot groups down it....and it's not even hunting season yet:eek:. It won't make it another season. I have 2 new tubes on order, with the option on a third. This bbl will be religated to firerforming (if needed) and hunting. As far as to when I used your die, I read the instructions and followed them to a tee....and then I did the oposite....just to see.

Rifle was built and chamberd by Clay Spencer.....nuff said about that subject!!
 
Tod,

If you've explained everything exactly correct (and it appears that you have), then you're doing everything right, and you obviously have a FL die and a rifle chamber that are not compatable. This is only possible when manufacturing dimensions are outside of acceptable tolerances. There has to be a problem with your FL die or the rifle chamber. I don't remember if you've tried Go/ No Go gauges, but that would tell you for sure about your rifle chamber.

I've seen this happen a jillion times with tight custom chambered rifles. If you've explained everything exactly correct (and it appears that you have), then it would appear that you can resolve the problem (no matter which is at fault) by shortening your die the correct amount. HOWEVER, if you shorten the base of your die; then you've just created a small base die, because your FL die is tapered and die is now probably too tight at the bottom. Small base dies REALLY don't work on belted magnum cases.

I'll bet that your "custom" chamber was a bit too tight on headspace, because chambering a rifle is much more difficult than making a FL die. Everybody makes a mistake sooner or later, and this one would be quick and easy to fix. Good luck ...


- Innovative
 
Lynn said:
You are bumping the shoulder 0.007 without sizing all of the neck?
Lynn
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It looks to me that .3185 of the neck is being sized with the bushing. The case OAL is 2.840( I just trimmed .034 off, as they were looking a little long, and I wanted to make sure that it wasn't the brass hitting the end of the chamber, so now the OAL is 2.8060). I guess I don't know if this is a lot, not enough, or just right of the neck being sized. You can see where the bushing stops sizing the neck, and my guess is nothing touches the neck for a ways up the radius of the sholder.

HOPE THAT HELPS
TOD SOEBY
 
the reason i ask, is because there seems to be the possibility that you are not quite up to speed on the terminology and perhaps dimensions of the cartridge case.

now, i don't mean to challenge you or cause you any embarrassment in my so asking. we all are here to help as much as we can. that means each other.

i, myself, would have never have known about reloading if a good friend hadn't introduced me to skeet shooting, and then tutored me on the process of reloading. therefore, in having prior experience in reloading shotgun shells, i was later able to self teach myself on reloading cartridge cases. BUT, ONLY with very much studying numerous reloading manuals on the subject before hand, and even then, paying MUCH attention to detail during the process. books open. it is not a lame process, that one can start reloading, without adequate tutoring, or applied knowledge. you can get hurt if you make a mistake.

now, i don't know if you are sufficiently qualified or not. if you are fine. forget all that i have said today. i am only asking in favor of your welfare.

if you think you might be able to stand a little more experience at reloading, i would suggest getting with someone experienced at reloading, thusly gaining a little more knowledge, and you'll be off and running on your own.

i would be more than happy to spend the time necessary to help you. so would others, i am sure. after all, that's how we learned.

is there anyone you know in your area that could help you with, or observe your reloading practices? even when shooting at a range, inside or outside of competition, there are times when any of us might have to be observed, in order to see what it is we are doing wrong.

i would suggest taking a step back, and getting a little tutoring. if you are experienced, get someone to observe, to identify what is causing this problem, whether it be equipment, or technique.

hope i have helped.
 
longshooter said:
the reason i ask, is because there seems to be the possibility that you are not quite up to speed on the terminology and perhaps dimensions of the cartridge case.

now, i don't mean to challenge you or cause you any embarrassment in my so asking. we all are here to help as much as we can. that means each other.

i, myself, would have never have known about reloading if a good friend hadn't introduced me to skeet shooting, and then tutored me on the process of reloading. therefore, in having prior experience in reloading shotgun shells, i was later able to self teach myself on reloading cartridge cases. BUT, ONLY with very much studying numerous reloading manuals on the subject before hand, and even then, paying MUCH attention to detail during the process. books open. it is not a lame process, that one can start reloading, without adequate tutoring, or applied knowledge. you can get hurt if you make a mistake.

now, i don't know if you are sufficiently qualified or not. if you are fine. forget all that i have said today. i am only asking in favor of your welfare.

if you think you might be able to stand a little more experience at reloading, i would suggest getting with someone experienced at reloading, thusly gaining a little more knowledge, and you'll be off and running on your own.

i would be more than happy to spend the time necessary to help you. so would others, i am sure. after all, that's how we learned.

is there anyone you know in your area that could help you with, or observe your reloading practices? even when shooting at a range, inside or outside of competition, there are times when any of us might have to be observed, in order to see what it is we are doing wrong.

i would suggest taking a step back, and getting a little tutoring. if you are experienced, get someone to observe, to identify what is causing this problem, whether it be equipment, or technique.

hope i have helped.
Click to expand...
You haven't......and I won't dignify it with any more of an answer than that.
 
Tod,

Longshooter is right.
I began reloading over 40 years ago. I've also designed reloading equipment, built prototype firearms, shot in competition, and I'm still learning new things about reloading. My website www.larrywillis.com is designed to help shooters at all levels - check it out. I don't think there's anybody on this forum that will intentionally discourage you. This forum seems to have some of the best shooters on the Internet to learn from.

- Innovative
 
Larry Willis said:
Tod,

Longshooter is right.
I began reloading over 40 years ago. I've also designed reloading equipment, built prototype firearms, shot in competition, and I'm still learning new things about reloading. My website www.larrywillis.com is designed to help shooters at all levels - check it out. I don't think there's anybody on this forum that will intentionally discourage you. This forum seems to have some of the best shooters on the Internet to learn from.

- Innovative
Click to expand...


Larry,

I think you nailed it in post #75. I know it seems hard for people to grasp the concept, no mater how remote the odds of it happining are, that # 75 is the case.. It HAS to be operator error. I can see the wheels in longshooters head turning about my case OAL of 2.84 being to long, but of all of the chambers that I have ever measured, and I have measured every one in the last 7 years.....none.....none have been any where CLOSE to being as short as any manual I have ever read. And we have 4 of them around here some where (even the mannuals differ one another on a bunch of things) .....EVER!! Now, truth be told, I never measured this chamber, that is why I trimmed the brass for it....just in case I overlooked the obvious. I didn't get around to turning my tool down to fit the .330 neck to make the measurement.

I know that NOBODY knows EVERYTHING about loading. Even if they did, there are new tools and new technoligy appering all of the time....I GET IT....but this problem isn't caused by my ineptness at the loading bench....but the cure for it shure- n - L is. That is why I come here for answers. READ THE MANUAL isn't an answer, at least not in this case.

No mater...I have gone through 55 cases by FL sizing....I am going to neck only the other 55....test....go to Pella next week....win all 4 relays....all 4 shootoffs.....win the IBS SOY points race....and retire the same technical idiot that stands before you here today!!!!


:D:D HEY...A GUY CAN DREAM, CAN'T HE!!! :D:D

THANKS GUYS
TOD
 
Tod,

We don't always know what our fellow shooters are thinking. I believe that Longshooter was wondering if you really meant to say "OAL", when it appeared that you meant to say "case length". OAL means "overall length" (and that includes the bullet).

- Innovative
 
larry, the thing that drew my attention was in post #77, when tod mentioned a length of 2.840", which is 0.020" over max length for the brass. this is something that should have been noticed much sooner. i don't know the length of his chamber, but he could be deforming the brass because of it. and what part of the "neck being sized" sounds a little vague. the 0.318" neck size, hmmm, i figure weatherby brass is thin in the neck, but i don't think the die should be going that far. so, a lot of questions about this post. which prompted the posts that i wrote. i think he should take you up on your offer to examine his die, brass, shell holder, whatever. a second pair of eyes are in order at this point. or, obtain a standard die and shellholder, and start again with a f.l. resize. if still a problem, ck the chamber. i'll butt out. i'm not here to make enemies.
 
Larry Willis said:
Tod,

We don't always know what our fellow shooters are thinking. I believe that Longshooter was wondering if you really meant to say "OAL", when it appeared that you meant to say "case length". OAL means "overall length" (and that includes the bullet).

- Innovative
Click to expand...

The reason I used the "OAL" designation when talking about the case is because there were other case measurement numbers being used....I didn't want there to be any doubt as to what spacific measurement I was talking about. As far as running the case lengh long...I was always under the impresion, and also read in one of the books on precision shooting, was "use the longest neck possable". I do alot of loading for cases with short necks. I always measure the chamber length, use that measurement as "true" max case lenght, and ignore the book's number......every chamber is cut different. I start a new page in my loading notebook for every new gun I load for, and I do all of the measuring I can before I ever turn a wheel, and document it. From there I write down all of the loads I test, chrono #'s....everything, so I don't forget. Like I said, I never got around to getting the little leaded-steel plug turned down to fit the .330 neck.

Lynn,

My cases would not fit in the top of the collet die all the way to the belt, so I ran them through the die, AS PER THE INSTRUCTIONS, and the cases slid into the top of the collet die ALL THE WAY TO THE BELT....no friction at all....no help from me...just gravity. Like I said earlier.....this is a WONDERFULL tool, and would have paid for itself many times over had I had it 20 years ago!!! In the pre compitition days...the hunting days of "faster is better", I went through a ton of brass....all belted of course.

Like I said....this is all going to be a moot point after this season. I may swich to an "improved" 300. If I stick with the standard wby....the .330 neck will be replaced with a .336 (or thicker) neck. Or a WSM. I don't know. This standard 300 chamber has won a lot of relays. It's the old "grass is greener" thing going on. In any case, its going to get a custom die. Or quit....the 10,000 miles of driving this season SUCKED!!

THANKS AGAIN,
TOD
 
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Hi Tod Dave Holland here ---I would hate to think what you will do if you figure all this out now for next year . For the people that do not know you . Tod is shooting 1000 yd benchrest for the very first time this year 2008 and he is in second place as we speak for the points for shooter of the year . He shot at the nationals in OHIO and i beleave he was 15th in the overall ranking if my memory is right . I wish that i had your problem!!
Dave :)
 
Lynn said:
Tod
Cut a case in half then de-burr it.This will eliminate 50% of the guess work.

If you've been winning relays with your current set-up stick with it.The brass issue once it gets sorted out will be a minor glitch in past history by next season.I went through it with my 300 Ackley's but now that its fixed I'm not changing just yet.
Lynn
Click to expand...

I am pretty sure I will stay with the 300 WBY, it's just that a .330 neck doesn't lend itself to much neck tension, and so far, things have worked better with more grip. On the other side of the coin....a .330 neck gives me a little more control of small changes in tension.....going from a .325 to a .324 is a smaller change with a thinner neck (a.001 change in a thicker neck will produce a bigger change in grip than a .001 change with a thinner neck) That, of course, is my opinion, but it seems to me that that's how it SHOULD work...all other things being equal.

Hey Dave. Thanks for the kind words. :) I hope to see you guys a lot next year, but, like I said, I may need to cut back on the travel. Is there any chance you will make it to Pella? I am working on a friend of mine, along with Dick Erbele, maybe even Donovan. I have been talking to Mike W. and he is most likley going. It would be great to see a GRRC invasion of Pella next weekend!!!:eek:

Later
Tod
 
Very thorough and correct information

Steve,
Very good post for shooter's not familiar with the quirks of belted cases. I'm lacking in patience to be this detailed in posts. I think Todd definitely has a chamber/die incompatibility issue based on everything I read in this post. The next 300 Weatherby I chamber will have the headspace shortened to minimize unsupported case in front of the belt. I thought my headspace gage allowed for this but upon inspection it looks like I have a standard belted magnum headspace gage. For those not familiar the belted magnum hs gages do not reference off the shoulder at all, they reference off the front of the belt.

Steve Shelp said:
Since this resurfaced with the new posts I reviewed some of the posts and one thing that really stood out was the following statement that is incorrect:



This issue has existed for years and there are different ways to deal with it. One of the best is with your die Larry. Especially if you already have an existing chamber/brass/dies and don't know what dimensions the chamber and dies were cut for. Larry's die doesn't fix the root cause of the issue, but it fixes the troublesome symptoms of it really well.

Or as some of the real serious shooters have done is to have thier own reamer ground with tighter tolerances for the headspace for the belt. Joe Salt touched on it in his post.

But lets address the true issue here and it is NOT brass being swagged down the case body while its being sized with a standard FL sizing die causing a buildup of brass which causes sticky chambering. It is not a buildup of brass, it is an expansion of the brass case and lack of sizing of the case body in front of the belt area that runs up into the case body area of the chamber.

It's all about the .220 nominal headspace dimension on belted brass and what tolerances the brass and belted chamber are cut with. If you have a piece of brass that actually measures say .210 and your chamber is cut at .221 headspace. That means there is a .011 headspace gap between your brass belt and the chamber (IF you are headspacing off from the shoulder!!!!!). That same gap still exists if your not headspacing off from the shoulder also but now the case is allowed to move within that .011 range.
But for the sake of clarity here we are going to assume a 0 tolerance for headspacing on the shoulder and we have the .011 gap between the brass and chamber in front of the belt. That .011 of brass is UNSUPPORTED on it diameter because the brass case is .512 nominal and the "chamber" in that area is .532 nominal. Now I fully understand that there are slight radiuses cut in here in real life for the chamber and on the case also. But for the sake of understanding what is going on lets assume the the brass belt and the chamber are cut with 90 degree cuts in this area. So we have a true .011 gap for headspacing on the belt and a .020 gap from the case body to the outside of the belt area cut into the chamber. After many firings the brass will expand into this .011 lg x .020 dia gap because the brass is unsupported in that area. You actually end up with a double belted case that starts to headspace on the "new" formed belt after many firings.

It is also compounded by the fact that std sizing dies do not resize all the way down to the beginning of the .011 gap I mentioned above. So the case body is not sized in this area either. But again, it's a lack of sizing and not a buildup of swagged brass being pushed down for the case body that caused the interferance fit after several firings.

A way to prove this is simple. Take a brand new case and chamber it in your rifle. If it goes in really easy, load and fire it. Neck size only!! After a couple of firings you will end up with the same problems back on the belted area if you neck size only. So this interface problem is not caused by std sizing dies causing a buildup of brass. The root cause is unsuppoorted brass in front of the brass belt that expands after many firings and that the case body is not fully sized down to the belt area so that the case body eventually caused a serperat but jsut as important interferance fit in that are also.

That is what happens pure and simple. Then when you start applying this in real life and with tolerances in the chamber dimension and the brass various lot to lot and you happen to bump the shoulder to much causing headspace issues between the boltface and shoulder area... it doesn't take long for the issue to develope. Eventually you end up with a crush fit while trying to chamber a round because you maybe bumped the shoulder more this time and are now allowing the "new" expanded belt to go forward and headspace before the true belt of the case does causing an interference fit while chambering.
A std sizing die doesn't touch this area to squeeze it back down and you now have the dreaded problem we have all been through. Enter Larry's collet die that sqeezes this area down.

Joel P addressed this issue his way by using a file. Joe Salt tightened up the tolerances to where that "gap" is minimal to begin with and truely headspaces off the belt and not the shoulder so that this double radius doesn't develop. These methods are all doing the same thing really. Been there done that with a version of a 308 Baer years ago.

My solution.... I don't shoot belted cases anymore for this reason. I eliminated the root cause and that is a poor case design of the belted case. I've got other things to worry about.

Steve
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Very good post for shooter's not familiar with the quirks of belted cases. I'm lacking in patience to be this detailed in posts. I think Todd definitely has a chamber/die incompatibility issue based on everything I read in this post. The next 300 Weatherby I chamber will have the headspace shortened to minimize unsupported case in front of the belt. I thought my headspace gage allowed for this but upon inspection it looks like I have a standard belted magnum headspace gage. For those not familiar the belted magnum hs gages do not reference off the shoulder at all, they reference off the front of the belt.
Click to expand...

Pendergraft,

It's a very good idea (for handloaders) to have your belted mag chambers cut with a reduced headspace. However, due to the variation in factory ammo, some factory loads may not chamber. That's not a major problem when you're reloading.

The initial firing puts a huge stretch on belted cases, and that weakens the brass considerably right from the start. Just be sure not to reduce the chamber diameter less than .512" above the belt.

- Innovative
 
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