Full length sizing

Lynn,
There are so many ways to misinterperate these brief messages, it's unbelievable. Not knowing the skill level of each shooter can be a real problem too. I've seen some shooters read headspace gauges incorrectly, and it turned out that they were actually looking at "case length" not headspace length. It's better to define "headspace clearance" as measured (from the case shoulder) forward to the front shoulder of the chamber.

A .003" increase is normal procedure ONLY if you're talking about case length. All FL dies are designed to make handloads fit in the smallest chamber in a given caliber, when bumping the shellholder. It's almost impossible for any FL die to decrease your headspace clearance.

- Innovative
 
Larry....Re-read post # 27!!
Also, I just recieved your die yesterday. I haven't gotten a chance to use it yet. I have 100 brass that are definatly in need of your die.

Lynn. If I need to bump .001 - .002 for the best results, is that from the original , pre sized measurment of the fired case, or from the post-sized measurment (which would give a net GAIN of .001) of the case AFTER I had sized them? I would suspect that if my unsized , fired cases measure 4.202, I should end up at 4.200 for the best result. (i just made these numbers up as an exersize) I also would suspect that this is the proper amount of bump (.002) for my dasher.

Thanks alot guys!!
 
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Lynn ..........

The lower your die is set - the more your headspace "clearance" will increase.

Tod ..........

Measuring on a taper is very trick business. It's not a easy as you might think. If you do it a lot - you know what I mean.

There's only one width measurement you need to take, and that's about .060" above the belt. If your handloads measure more than .513" tight against (just above) the belt, they will probably not fit in your rifle properly, and those cases are most likely ruined. However, if your cases (measured .060" above the belt) measure .513" our die will save those cases. Read the directions very carefully.

- Innovative
 
Trust me!!

Larry,

Trust me...these 111 300 wby cases are not growing at .060 above the belt. NONE. ZIP. ZERO. Really.....trust me, I am a really good measurer (LOL). I like to measure things just for fun, and these brass DO NOT need your die. Now, mayby once I get my FL die fixed (Like ..in the last 10 min.), and I actualy get a sholder bump of .002 (like I will in the next 10 min.) ,the brass will grow by the belt and THEN I will need your die. And, low and behold, it is sitting right next to me, and I won't have to wait a few days for it to come because I was to much of a cheap-ass to have ordered the tools I need in the first place!!! Or I was to STUPID to even know that they existed. I can fix the problem....tonight!!! My guess is that you will be right (in about 10 min.) because that is how things have been going for me lately, and the friggen brass will grow!!:eek::eek:

Now, if the brass fattens up down by the belt after I have bumped the sholder back by .002, and I squeeze the brass back down to size with your die, will the brass grow in length AGAIN???....The brass needs to go SOMEWHERE, doesn't it?
 
Lynn, what you're saying about the case getting longer is partially true, but it depends upon the die and it's relationship to the fired case. Also on how soft the case is.

An annealed case tends to grow faster than one that is not. A die that does not fit a chamber very well, and is significantly undersize on the diameter, will make the length grow. However, a custom die that fits that case really nice, will not make it grow at all, and you can full length size to your hearts delight. As an example, I anneal every firing, and full length resize every firing, and I only just did a trim to length on cases for the first time in several years. Fact is, they didn't really need it, I was just in the mood for more casework I guess. They easily had another 10 to grow before any issue was even begining.

In a typical situation tho, what you're saying is correct. FL Resizing does definitely make the case longer, and even pushing the shoulder back, makes the case even longer yet, as long as the shoulder isn't too steep. Yes, the shoulder get's pushed, but the material has to go somewhere and it squirts out the top of the die. There's no free lunch.

Now, if the brass fattens up down by the belt after I have bumped the sholder back by .002, and I squeeze the brass back down to size with your die, will the brass grow in length AGAIN???....The brass needs to go SOMEWHERE, doesn't it?
Click to expand...
No, that collet die will not make the case longer. It will crush the material in place, both on diameter and length. Yes it must go somewhere and it does... In.

Check your trim length with a gage like Sinclair sells (for use in a split neck case) and see if the chamber length is not your problem. (at the end of the neck)
 
Tod .........

I believe you .... really I do. At first I had some doubt .... but not now. If a case doesn't fit in the "top" of the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die, then its diameter is over .512" above the belt. A new factory case measures .507"


It is possible for some cases to be reloaded too many times (in a large chamber) to save them. This die must be used AFTER your FL die, and you don't need to use it until your cases fail to fit in the top.

- Innovative
 
One thing I have done to salvage belted brass that has grown too large just above the belt (the area which Larry's collet tool will not reduce). Take a small file (I use a Grobet needle file) and remove the small amount of brass that has grown in the corner formed by the belt and case body. The brass files very easily and does not take much time per case to remove. This may be a little delicate for some but those handy with their hands will have no problem.
 
J. Pendergraft,

You don't want to use a file on the side of your cases either. These cases are solid (at the web) for the first few thousandths of an inch above the belt. However, the web ends in that area, and the brass is very thin there. That's where case separations occur. Filing is obviously not a good option. This build up of brass is caused by FL dies swagging the brass downward - instead of inward like my die. The brass just piles up against the belt. It's now an easy problem to solve.

Look at all the problems shooters are dealing with here! That's why I invented this die! These problems can easily be solved without taking extreme measures.

- Larry
 
Lynn, That die must size more than I give credit for, or your cases are pretty darn big. For it to grow 2 using a collet die seems strange to me. I use straight steel dies and mine don't grow that much and I really size cases.

Hmm. Kewl. Never woulda guessed that. Does that die not push back on the case (belt) at the same time as you run the ram up?
 
Lynn,
The 308 Baer is a very straight walled case, and it requires a bit more leverage from your press than other calibers. The tapered collet expands from both ends, because every other slot is cut from the oposite direction. That helps it adapt to different case dimensions.

I spent a long time making the instructions right to the point, and absolutely as short as possible. My idea is that more shooters would then take the time to read them. I'm as guilty as anyone about not reading instructions, but in this case it's pretty important.

When a fireformed case needs to accept the pressures forced on it from reloading AND chamber perfectly - every thousandth of an inch is a big deal. Case width is amost always a problem when reloading belted magnum calibers - sooner or later everyone will see it.

- Innovative
 
Larry Willis said:
J. Pendergraft,

You don't want to use a file on the side of your cases either. These cases are solid (at the web) for the first few thousandths of an inch above the belt. However, the web ends in that area, and the brass is very thin there. That's where case separations occur. Filing is obviously not a good option. This build up of brass is caused by FL dies swagging the brass downward - instead of inward like my die. The brass just piles up against the belt. It's now an easy problem to solve.

Look at all the problems shooters are dealing with here! That's why I invented this die! These problems can easily be solved without taking extreme measures.

- Larry
Click to expand...

Larry, I respectfully disagree, I have filed many Norma 300 Weatherby cases in the area I'm talking about and never once had a case separation. I am talking about removing a minute amount of brass, maybe .002-.003". The case wall is .037" thick in this area. I'm not talking about doing this but 2-3 times on a piece of brass. My belief is this small area (.005-.007") in front of the belt can grow because it is unsupported by the typical chamber. I have used your tool and it did not prevent this area from becoming a problem after several firings.

I wish I had just had my reamer ground without the belt and I wouldn't have to deal with the problematic belt. Belts on cases are totally useless and a PITA IMO.

I will say that you can NOT afford cases that do not chamber cleanly. In practice at shorter ranges I have seen the bullet from the hard to chamber round go out of the group too many times and many times the chrongraph will reflect an out of norm velocity as well. I normally run all my sized cases through the gun to insure they chamber cleanly before reloading them.
 
J. Pendergraft ......

Believe me, you should never file your cases down to size. Our Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die will reduce case diameter every time. The ONLY exception is if you reload your cases several times with a SB die or a super tight FL die, (without using our die), and continue to reload your belted cases this way - here's what happens:

At each reloading, your tight fitting die swages the brass back, pushing it against the belt. If you continue this again and again, and if you have not used out die, your cases can swell beyond recovery. Start over with new brass, and follow the directions. You'll see that there's no need to ever file your cases.

- Innovative
 
Joel

I had that problem years ago, because of head spacing of the shoulder. Now I head space off the belt with .217 go. and .221 no-go and have not had this problem with the bulge in front of the belt. Try it you'll like it! And then Larry's Die works great.
Joe Salt
 
Immmmmm BAAAAACK

Well, I finaly put away all of those fancy measuring tools and figured out the problem the old fashond way. Now, I bumped the sholders back, as much as .007, which I know is to much. I baught a collet die, and ran my brass through.......SAME PROBLEM. The fired brass, which when put back in the chamber BEFORE any type of sizing, allows the bolt to drop with gravity only when closed. After sizing....harder to chamber...some resistance. I was looking at the sized brass , after chambering it a couple of times, under the magnifieing glass and spotted something. So, I put the tools away, grabbed a bic lighter and smoked the neck area of the brass, just like I used to do 145 years ago, and re-chamberd it.. The brass is shiny about 1/32 inch up the sholder. Just past where the radius starts. It looks like my bushing should do just a little more of the neck area. Push it back, so to speak. I don't think it is a "donut". I don't think I can turn it off with a neck turning tool. It is just a little to far up the sholder for that. I do know that my brass gets longer in OAL after I FL size it. I never checked to see if running it through the collet die made it grow any more. I think that the brass is flowing forward anywhere the die isn't touching the brass, and the die is obviously not touching that part of the neck.

Is there a cure for this problem? I know, without a doubt, that this is what is causing resistance on the bolt when closing it on FL sized brass, and not on un-sized, fired brass. I also know that it probably isn't life or death...it's not like I have to hammer the bolt down. But it may be enough that I may need to "think about it" during a string, and I DO NOT multy-task well!!:D.

I got rid of the problem before the IBS nationals the old fashond way also....I neck sized only.:eek:

Thanks,
Tod
 
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Tod,
You speak of .007" as if it weren't much . . . . well, it's not much to a carpenter or a welder, but it IS a lot when reloading. Send me a few of your fired cases, and I'll send you a FREE report on exactly what's causing your problem. (Can you beat that?) Quality measuring tools really do work. I don't care what your "smoked cases" are telling you. What you're doing seems logical, but I still suspect your problem is case width just above the belt.

The width of a new case is .507" above the belt, and if you measure this area you'll see how it is has expanded. If you're Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die didn't solve your problem, then I recommend reading step number 5 in the instructions. "If your cases have been fired too many times (without ever using the collet die) it's possible for them to swell beyond recovery". The problem is made worse by pushing the shoulder back farther than necessary.

Here's what happens: Your conventional FL sizing die pushes the brass back towards the case head, and the case wall is therefore squeezed inward. The brass is also being pushed back against the case head, where it causes the thinnest part of your case to buckle. If the brass gets plowed back repeatedly (without using the collet die), brass can accumulate over the web (the solid part) of your case. Once that happens the case is ruined. If your particular FL die is too tight (compared to your particular chamber), that also makes the problem worse. The good news is, I don't suspect any problems with your reloading equipment.

- Innovative
 
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didn't post #47 cover this? it would seem that your chamber is sized shorter than your die. or would we say, your die is longer than your chamber?
 
Since this resurfaced with the new posts I reviewed some of the posts and one thing that really stood out was the following statement that is incorrect:

The brass just piles up against the belt.
Click to expand...

This issue has existed for years and there are different ways to deal with it. One of the best is with your die Larry. Especially if you already have an existing chamber/brass/dies and don't know what dimensions the chamber and dies were cut for. Larry's die doesn't fix the root cause of the issue, but it fixes the troublesome symptoms of it really well.

Or as some of the real serious shooters have done is to have thier own reamer ground with tighter tolerances for the headspace for the belt. Joe Salt touched on it in his post.

But lets address the true issue here and it is NOT brass being swagged down the case body while its being sized with a standard FL sizing die causing a buildup of brass which causes sticky chambering. It is not a buildup of brass, it is an expansion of the brass case and lack of sizing of the case body in front of the belt area that runs up into the case body area of the chamber.

It's all about the .220 nominal headspace dimension on belted brass and what tolerances the brass and belted chamber are cut with. If you have a piece of brass that actually measures say .210 and your chamber is cut at .221 headspace. That means there is a .011 headspace gap between your brass belt and the chamber (IF you are headspacing off from the shoulder!!!!!). That same gap still exists if your not headspacing off from the shoulder also but now the case is allowed to move within that .011 range.
But for the sake of clarity here we are going to assume a 0 tolerance for headspacing on the shoulder and we have the .011 gap between the brass and chamber in front of the belt. That .011 of brass is UNSUPPORTED on it diameter because the brass case is .512 nominal and the "chamber" in that area is .532 nominal. Now I fully understand that there are slight radiuses cut in here in real life for the chamber and on the case also. But for the sake of understanding what is going on lets assume the the brass belt and the chamber are cut with 90 degree cuts in this area. So we have a true .011 gap for headspacing on the belt and a .020 gap from the case body to the outside of the belt area cut into the chamber. After many firings the brass will expand into this .011 lg x .020 dia gap because the brass is unsupported in that area. You actually end up with a double belted case that starts to headspace on the "new" formed belt after many firings.

It is also compounded by the fact that std sizing dies do not resize all the way down to the beginning of the .011 gap I mentioned above. So the case body is not sized in this area either. But again, it's a lack of sizing and not a buildup of swagged brass being pushed down for the case body that caused the interferance fit after several firings.

A way to prove this is simple. Take a brand new case and chamber it in your rifle. If it goes in really easy, load and fire it. Neck size only!! After a couple of firings you will end up with the same problems back on the belted area if you neck size only. So this interface problem is not caused by std sizing dies causing a buildup of brass. The root cause is unsuppoorted brass in front of the brass belt that expands after many firings and that the case body is not fully sized down to the belt area so that the case body eventually caused a serperat but jsut as important interferance fit in that are also.

That is what happens pure and simple. Then when you start applying this in real life and with tolerances in the chamber dimension and the brass various lot to lot and you happen to bump the shoulder to much causing headspace issues between the boltface and shoulder area... it doesn't take long for the issue to develope. Eventually you end up with a crush fit while trying to chamber a round because you maybe bumped the shoulder more this time and are now allowing the "new" expanded belt to go forward and headspace before the true belt of the case does causing an interference fit while chambering.
A std sizing die doesn't touch this area to squeeze it back down and you now have the dreaded problem we have all been through. Enter Larry's collet die that sqeezes this area down.

Joel P addressed this issue his way by using a file. Joe Salt tightened up the tolerances to where that "gap" is minimal to begin with and truely headspaces off the belt and not the shoulder so that this double radius doesn't develop. These methods are all doing the same thing really. Been there done that with a version of a 308 Baer years ago.

My solution.... I don't shoot belted cases anymore for this reason. I eliminated the root cause and that is a poor case design of the belted case. I've got other things to worry about.

Steve
 
Larry Willis said:
Tod,
You speak of .007" as if it weren't much . . . . well, it's not much to a carpenter or a welder, but it IS a lot when reloading. Send me a few of your fired cases, and I'll send you a FREE report on exactly what's causing your problem. (Can you beat that?) Quality measuring tools really do work. I don't care what your "smoked cases" are telling you. What you're doing seems logical, but I still suspect your problem is case width just above the belt.

The width of a new case is .507" above the belt, and if you measure this area you'll see how it is has expanded. If you're Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die didn't solve your problem, then I recommend reading step number 5 in the instructions. "If your cases have been fired too many times (without ever using the collet die) it's possible for them to swell beyond recovery". The problem is made worse by pushing the shoulder back farther than necessary.

Here's what happens: Your conventional FL sizing die pushes the brass back towards the case head, and the case wall is therefore squeezed inward. The brass is also being pushed back against the case head, where it causes the thinnest part of your case to buckle. If the brass gets plowed back repeatedly (without using the collet die), brass can accumulate over the web (the solid part) of your case. Once that happens the case is ruined. If your particular FL die is too tight (compared to your particular chamber), that also makes the problem worse. The good news is, I don't suspect any problems with your reloading equipment.

- Innovative
Click to expand...


1) I have great measuring equipment.
2) I know how to use them.
3) I have good loading equipment.
4) I know how to use them, too (including you die, which is an awsome tool, by the way).
5) All of the brass has been fired 3 times with light loads. They almost fit in the top of your collet die, but not quite, so I ran them through your die. They also fit in the chamber perfectly before sizing them(at least as far as the "close the bolt W/O any force" theory method). This lot of brass is in far better shape than any of my other brass, which I pounded the p#ss out of during load development, just to see where the "end" was. This brass has never been within 11 grains of the "end" . 74gr vs 85gr RL 25 / 210 VLD. That is what I like about this brass...every one has had the same load, all of the primer pockets are tight and "feel" exactly the same when seating primers. Same with how they feel in the die. Same with how the bullet seats. ALL THE SAME!!!
6) If "5" is the problem, wouldn't they fit tight in the chamber before I FL sized & used your collet die?
7) I didn't size all of my brass back .007. It's just that .001, .002, .003, ect... didn't work and I wanted to make sure.
8) I didn't need the smoke...one look at a sized brass and an unsized brass together under a mag. glass told the story (once I knew where to look).

No , Larry, you are wrong on this one. I know that your knowlege and experiance makes me look like a 6th grader (a SLOW one at that), and I respect you and apprietiate your advice, but I am right on this one. NO OFFENCE!!! And like I said before, your die is great. I rescued some old 7mm rem brass that I was too cheap to trash. Also, thanks for your offer to check my brass over. This is the last shoot of the year for me, and the last compeditive shoot for this BBL. It's time to retire it to the "killing fields" ;) .

I think I may go to an improved 300 or WSM on the next one, so I wil have a whole new batch of problems and dumb questions for you!!:eek: Don't ask me why I might change, when I have done ok my first year out with a standard 300 WBY. Like I said .... SLOW 6th grade mentality (sorry if I offended the 6th graders out there).

Longshooter. We did cover it....the chamber WAS shorter than the die....I milled .025 off of the die.....I wouldn't get up to a .007 bump on FL sized brass if # 47 was the case.

Thanks,
Tod
 
Longshooter. We did cover it....the chamber WAS shorter than the die....I milled .025 off of the die.....I wouldn't get up to a .007 bump on FL sized brass if # 47 was the case.
Click to expand...

So Tod, what does this mean? Does it mean that you are experiencing no problem at the belt/web area, and that your die is not up to the task at the shoulder/neck?
 
Tod,

Well . . . . we all understand the need for buying a new rifle. (In fact, I've had that "need" many times myself.) However, you have a resizing problem here, that's very easy to solve. You didn't mention if you FL resized your case before (or after) using the Belted Magnum Collet Resizing Die. This is mentioned (step 3) in the instructions, and it makes a BIG difference. I'm sure we're missing some small piece of information like that.

Reading all of the previous posts would take an hour, and I haven't got that much time. I'd like to help you solve the problem, but without seeing your cases - it's all just guess work. Solving this problem might help another shooter out there.

The tolerance of reloading dies today is outstanding, and I've NEVER seen a single FL sizing die that needed to be cut down. If shortening your FL die helps, then your particular chamber is cut unusually short (out of spec.). This is extremely rare with production rifles, because manufacturers know that their rifles need to chamber ALL factory loads - even the longest rounds that are still within spec. That leads me to wonder . . . . Who chambered your rifle?

- Innovative
 
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