Free Recoil question for Tonykharper

[linekin]

Great description Bruce. You'd explained that to me to a lesser extent a couple years ago & I'm pretty sure I gave you the look of disbelief. There's no arguing the success you've had with it though.
I shoot all my rifle free recoil, sporter included. Had some pretty good success with it but not as consistent as I'd like. I've tried the thumb behind the trigger guard with the sporter if I'd been struggling with it years ago but never felt like that worked for me. Also tried more tension on the forearm but never liked it either.
I've gotten pissed off & tried pinning them against the stop but that never goes well. Some shoot that way I guess.
Also you touched on the tracking. Thats the key to alot of it imo irregardless of how we shoot them.

Keith

 

[MaxxPower]

Also you touched on the tracking. Thats the key to alot of it imo irregardless of how we shoot them.

Keith

Agreed. I was having some consistency problems a while back and a friend said he thought my tracking was off. That's when I started using the small sighters to test this and a minor adjustment to my rear back corrected it and immediately eliminated the problem. It's pretty rare that we find a simple fix that really works.

I should have also mentioned that I shoot free recoil with the O-ring on the trigger Tony mentioned.

 

[tonykharper]

Tim:

Alright, here goes...

I shoot a Leupold Competition Hunter. (straight 6X). It comes with their Target Dot reticle. I'm not sure if it's their smallest dot but it's nice and small.

I don't hold in the center of the bull. Since I cant see the lines on the bull at 6 power all that I see is a big white empty space with nothing to consistently put my dot on. Especially after several targets aiming for the center of all that white space is a dicey business in my opinion. And God forbid you have to hold of a little (or a lot). I think a lot of Sporter misses come from the vagaries of holding off in that big white circle with 6 power scope.

So, I only use the big outer circles since I can see them clearly and consistently. My ideal hold is the dot down at 6 o'clock and half-way into the black. To confirm this I use the horizontal lines on the reticle to see them just disappear into the black on the bull to the right. I think my scope is about 10 clicks up from center hold to set it up at the bottom like this.

But wait.. there's more! This hold (just talking about vertical now) can give you 5 very repeatable holds:
1. Dot just touching the black ring
2. Dot half-way into the black ring
3. Dot completely in the black ring (the Leupold dot fits the height of the black rings perfectly
4. Dot half-way out the bottom of the black rings
5. Dot just touching the black rings at the bottom.

This method also allows you to easily find the vertical center of each bull. Using method 5 from above you can easily tell when the top of the dot touches the bottom of the big circle. That's your center. Then you can come up to any of the holds that work and you're good. Once you're comfortable with these holds it's also easy to consistently move to your left/right hold-off as well.

So, what about using the small sighters on the sides? If you're not holding in the center how to adjust for the dramatic hold on the bottom? I line up the dot for my hold on the record bull and then slide over to the sighter and confirm that the horizontal lines on the reticle are where they should be on the record bull.

I find the small sighters most useful for checking my tracking and set-up of my rifle. I put the dot in the center of a small sighter and watch the shot. I want the dot to remain centered in that small sighter. If it isn't then I need to check my rear bag and anything else that might affect tracking.

Lastly, I never watch my record shots through the scope as I shoot. I either watch the flags if I'm outside or close my eyes if I'm inside, listen to my music and let the trigger break be a surprise.

So, Tim... can I interest you in some of that Amway detergent?

Bruce,

Thank you so much for this post. It isn't often we see a shooter of your caliber provide this kind of insight into how you shoot.

Would you please copy your post and add it to the sticky Sporter thread. That way more people will be able to reference it.

Thank you again.

TKH

 

[doclu60]

Excellent post and explanation Bruce. I will echo Keith's thoughts as to seeing it explained in writing has given me a better understanding than the conversation we had. I would also like to see this post added to the sticky section. Easy and quick way to reference it in the future.

Regards......Scott

 

[tim]

Tim:

Alright, here goes...

I shoot a Leupold Competition Hunter. (straight 6X). It comes with their Target Dot reticle. I'm not sure if it's their smallest dot but it's nice and small.

I don't hold in the center of the bull. Since I cant see the lines on the bull at 6 power all that I see is a big white empty space with nothing to consistently put my dot on. Especially after several targets aiming for the center of all that white space is a dicey business in my opinion. And God forbid you have to hold of a little (or a lot). I think a lot of Sporter misses come from the vagaries of holding off in that big white circle with 6 power scope.

So, I only use the big outer circles since I can see them clearly and consistently. My ideal hold is the dot down at 6 o'clock and half-way into the black. To confirm this I use the horizontal lines on the reticle to see them just disappear into the black on the bull to the right. I think my scope is about 10 clicks up from center hold to set it up at the bottom like this.

But wait.. there's more! This hold (just talking about vertical now) can give you 5 very repeatable holds:
1. Dot just touching the black ring
2. Dot half-way into the black ring
3. Dot completely in the black ring (the Leupold dot fits the height of the black rings perfectly
4. Dot half-way out the bottom of the black rings
5. Dot just touching the black rings at the bottom.

This method also allows you to easily find the vertical center of each bull. Using method 5 from above you can easily tell when the top of the dot touches the bottom of the big circle. That's your center. Then you can come up to any of the holds that work and you're good. Once you're comfortable with these holds it's also easy to consistently move to your left/right hold-off as well.

So, what about using the small sighters on the sides? If you're not holding in the center how to adjust for the dramatic hold on the bottom? I line up the dot for my hold on the record bull and then slide over to the sighter and confirm that the horizontal lines on the reticle are where they should be on the record bull.

I find the small sighters most useful for checking my tracking and set-up of my rifle. I put the dot in the center of a small sighter and watch the shot. I want the dot to remain centered in that small sighter. If it isn't then I need to check my rear bag and anything else that might affect tracking.

Lastly, I never watch my record shots through the scope as I shoot. I either watch the flags if I'm outside or close my eyes if I'm inside, listen to my music and let the trigger break be a surprise.

So, Tim... can I interest you in some of that Amway detergent?

Well, I see the merit of the system in regard to repeatability, I do. It is quite similar, in approach to many CF group guys that do not simply put the dot in the “ mothball”, and almost exactly how you shoot groups at distance when you must use mirage boards because you cannot see target rings at, say, 300 yards
I use a center dot setup essentially like shooting a receiver sight. I do tend to believe some eyes tend to “naturally center” easier than others and you are absolutely right about plenty of sighters to refreash-re acquire sight picture.
I tend to think, at the end of the day, sporters generally require a refined “art of the holdoff” with a lot of targets.
I,like you, will often get my hold and divert to both eyes on flags, particularly on real tough days .

Well, that was pretty interesting.....thanks.

Lastly, you’re on a roll.....how about 25 words or less on cleaning.

 

[PedroS]

Holding and holding off

As said, it's not easy for all to center a dot in a white circle, even if human eye is quite accurate cantering circles. ISSF and compound archery disciplines use this ability a lot...
But a different approach has been presented and should be tried out. I will at least. Having spend some time thinking about how to use it, I just see one disadvantage, being in the heat of a match forgetting that sighting approach and going to center. Agrhhh... disaster.

Ok, we have already two different ways of holding at center, but what about holding off? Funny enough I tend to over compensate on the right side vs the left. So green wind (coming from the right) is harder to compensate, than the red wind (coming from the left), just because of that mine brain error...

Do you have a special "controlled" way for holding off?
I know that not so many of you shoot with front and rear rests, but for us in Europe, where a single piece is not allowed, I think shooting non joystick front rests could help as some sort of marking could be put on the dials, saying: "hum..., for this wind two marks right and one mark down... Totally off and crazy?

 

[linekin]

"hum..., for this wind two marks right and one mark down... Totally off and crazy?

Pedro, it may not be a crazy as you think! I've been asked by another shooter over here to investigate putting detents in the windage & elevation knobs . Basically, the same idea. Many have never been able to see the scoring rings using a 6x scope & the idea is there would be a better gauge as to how far you are actually holding.
Not sure I can make it happen but its a looong winter & I'm gonna try!

Keith

 

[tonykharper]

As said, it's not easy for all to center a dot in a white circle, even if human eye is quite accurate cantering circles. ISSF and compound archery disciplines use this ability a lot...
But a different approach has been presented and should be tried out. I will at least. Having spend some time thinking about how to use it, I just see one disadvantage, being in the heat of a match forgetting that sighting approach and going to center. Agrhhh... disaster.

Ok, we have already two different ways of holding at center, but what about holding off? Funny enough I tend to over compensate on the right side vs the left. So green wind (coming from the right) is harder to compensate, than the red wind (coming from the left), just because of that mine brain error...

Do you have a special "controlled" way for holding off?
I know that not so many of you shoot with front and rear rests, but for us in Europe, where a single piece is not allowed, I think shooting non joystick front rests could help as some sort of marking could be put on the dials, saying: "hum..., for this wind two marks right and one mark down... Totally off and crazy?

Pedro,

"I know that not so many of you shoot with front and rear rests, but for us in Europe, where a single piece is not allowed"

Nearly all competitive RFBR "sporter" shooting done in the U.S. is under IR 50/50 0/50 rules which requires two piece rests with sand bags.

The rules also require the rifle stock not be wider than 2 1/4 inches, be made of wood, and can not have a flat bottom.

The total rifle/scope weight can not exceed 7.5 lbs. and the scope power can not exceed 6.5X. No ornaments can be added to the barrel.

With all of this said, sporters are the most highly evolved rifles we shoot in RFBR. A great sporter is special and a beautiful thing.

Many of them are fully capable of competing heads up with the heavier rifles, and have done so.

It is sad they are not as popular as they once were.

Attempts have been made to dumb down the rules make it easier, draw in more shooters. I feel they were misguided.

Sporters are hard because they are meant to be hard.

Sporters will never appeal to everyone, but there is nothing in RFBR that is as rewarding as aiming at a dot you really can't see,

touching the trigger, and looking through the spotting scope and seeing the dot has disappeared.

TKH

 

[Old1942]

Thank you everyone for all the tips and help. I read and try everything I thing will help. After a call to Mark Chesebro at Chersebro Rifles I went ahead and increased the overtravel to the max. Then I lowered the trigger pull weight to 4oz safely. There were no SLAM FIRES. This should help with the roller top issue. I will begin shooting again in 2-3 mounts weather permitting. The club range I shoot at has a rinfire benchrest group match the 3rd sat. each month May thru Nov. They have gotten bored shooting at 50YDS so will next year (2021) shoot the I.B.S Official 100yd Hunter Rifle target at 100yds. These are mostly bolt action benchrest rifles and a few semi autos. I will use this as warmup practice next year (2021) for my Shuetzen rimfire, 22lr, matches the 3rd sunday each month May thru Nov. I believe the Mkiii will be competitive in the Texas wind.

 

[PedroS]

Nearly all competitive RFBR "sporter" shooting done in the U.S. is under IR 50/50 0/50 rules which requires two piece rests with sand bags.

The rules also require the rifle stock not be wider than 2 1/4 inches, be made of wood, and can not have a flat bottom.

The total rifle/scope weight can not exceed 7.5 lbs. and the scope power can not exceed 6.5X. No ornaments can be added to the barrel.

With all of this said, sporters are the most highly evolved rifles we shoot in RFBR. A great sporter is a special and beautiful thing.

TKH

Thanks for the enlightening.
So we are all on the same boat. Good!

 

[tonykharper]

Thanks for the enlightening.
So we are all on the same boat. Good!

Pedro,

I'm not sure. I know there was a lot of talk about the international rules being changed to allow 8.5 lbs rifles, and 12 power scopes.

Do you know if these changes were implemented?

TKH

 

[PedroS]

Pedro,

I'm not sure. I know there was a lot of talk about the international rules being changed to allow 8.5 lbs rifles, and 12 power scopes.

Do you know if these changes were implemented?

TKH

Tony, weight yes, has been increased to 8,5lbs (3855gr), but power still limited to 6,5x
Funny enough majority of competitive rifles here are all around 3400~3600gr

Next 2023 Worlds, being postponed from 2021 because of COVID19, congress will be held and same rule propositions changes will be brought to discussion and voting, but, from my knowledge, nothing about sporters.

 

[tonykharper]

Thank you everyone for all the tips and help. I read and try everything I thing will help. After a call to Mark Chesebro at Chersebro Rifles I went ahead and increased the overtravel to the max. Then I lowered the trigger pull weight to 4oz safely. There were no SLAM FIRES. This should help with the roller top issue. I will begin shooting again in 2-3 mounts weather permitting. The club range I shoot at has a rinfire benchrest group match the 3rd sat. each month May thru Nov. They have gotten bored shooting at 50YDS so will next year (2021) shoot the I.B.S Official 100yd Hunter Rifle target at 100yds. These are mostly bolt action benchrest rifles and a few semi autos. I will use this as warmup practice next year (2021) for my Shuetzen rimfire, 22lr, matches the 3rd sunday each month May thru Nov. I believe the Mkiii will be competitive in the Texas wind.

oldman,

Glad to hear you got your trigger set to your satisfaction. As I look out at the 16 inches of snow on the ground it will be awhile before I'll be shooting outside again.

You mentioned you guys had become bored with shooting rimfires at 50 yards.

Why is that? There has been only one possible (250 25X) shot on the IR 50 target this year. Perhaps you guys are using another target?

One thing for sure, walking 100+ yards to hang targets will get a lot more tiring, than shooting rimfires at 50 yards is boring, at least for me.

That warm Texas wind does have a way with leveling the play field. Good luck!

TKH

 

[Old1942]

Free recoil question for Tonykharper

Tony
Walking 100yd and back is great exercise for a 78 year old man like me. Increasing the overtravel should not have allowed me to drop pull wt. to 4oz. I'm glad it did but I expect wt. to go back up when I start shooting again in Spring. Maybe I finally got the trigger group clean? I have not shot with the 50yd guys, just went to see what equip. they use, so I don't notice what target they were shooting. The 50yd match director said his guys told him they were bored so they all decided to try the new target at 100yds. The match director said that he hoped the switch would bring more shooters from the Schuetzen 'match shooters' to shoot and or use match as a practice with the 50yd guys. Am going over equipment I use, and will try new cleaning products. Will try Wipeout N0-Lead with patchout to see if I'm getting all the lead out of my Benchmark barrel with current cleaning procedure. Have you tried any wipeout products?

 

[tim]

Tony
Walking 100yd and back is great exercise for a 78 year old man like me. Increasing the overtravel should not have allowed me to drop pull wt. to 4oz. I'm glad it did but I expect wt. to go back up when I start shooting again in Spring. Maybe I finally got the trigger group clean? I have not shot with the 50yd guys, just went to see what equip. they use, so I don't notice what target they were shooting. The 50yd match director said his guys told him they were bored so they all decided to try the new target at 100yds. The match director said that he hoped the switch would bring more shooters from the Schuetzen 'match shooters' to shoot and or use match as a practice with the 50yd guys. Am going over equipment I use, and will try new cleaning products. Will try Wipeout N0-Lead with patchout to see if I'm getting all the lead out of my Benchmark barrel with current cleaning procedure. Have you tried any wipeout products?

Not to step on Tony’s toes....I’m sure he will answer. IMO if you shoot quality ammo, you are not going to develop any barrel leading to speak of ,a good rimfire solvent with brush....you’re good.
You should address the throat of your match barrel and something like c4 carbon cutter on a tight patch, only in the throat has proven quite effective.

 

[tonykharper]

Tony
Walking 100yd and back is great exercise for a 78 year old man like me. Increasing the overtravel should not have allowed me to drop pull wt. to 4oz. I'm glad it did but I expect wt. to go back up when I start shooting again in Spring. Maybe I finally got the trigger group clean? I have not shot with the 50yd guys, just went to see what equip. they use, so I don't notice what target they were shooting. The 50yd match director said his guys told him they were bored so they all decided to try the new target at 100yds. The match director said that he hoped the switch would bring more shooters from the Schuetzen 'match shooters' to shoot and or use match as a practice with the 50yd guys. Am going over equipment I use, and will try new cleaning products. Will try Wipeout N0-Lead with patchout to see if I'm getting all the lead out of my Benchmark barrel with current cleaning procedure. Have you tried any wipeout products?

I have tried about everything over the years, but I just use Hoppes. It seems to work as well as anything if you use it regularly.

I also use a bronze brush and a Remington product called 40X bore cleaner.

I must warn I recently learned I killed my very best barrel by cleaning it, so I may not be one to listen to.

I believe shooting 100 yards will allow more different shooters to win every once in awhile. If you go to 200 yards that will help even more.

If your club is like many where one guy or gal wins about every match this should cure that.

TKH

 

[Pete Wass]

Interesting

I have tried about everything over the years, but I just use Hoppes. It seems to work as well as anything if you use it regularly.

I also use a bronze brush and a Remington product called 40X bore cleaner.

I must warn I recently learned I killed my very best barrel by cleaning it, so I may not be one to listen to.

I believe shooting 100 yards will allow more different shooters to win every once in awhile. If you go to 200 yards that will help even more.

If your club is like many where one guy or gal wins about every match this should cure that.

TKH

I killed a pretty good barrel this summer cleaning it with the Rem bore cleaner. A bit too aggressive, apparently. I hope it will come back. I plan to try to shoot it out of it's demise by not cleaning often for awhile. I future, I'll just use the PatchOut, which had proved to be both fast and effective. Wanted fast and I got too fast!

Pete

 

[MaxxPower]

Ok, we have already two different ways of holding at center, but what about holding off? Funny enough I tend to over compensate on the right side vs the left. So green wind (coming from the right) is harder to compensate, than the red wind (coming from the left), just because of that mine brain error...

Pedro:

Sorry for the delay in responding. Santa got a lot of last minute requests this year...

First, you already talked about the large white circle we aim at with Sporters but let's start with that. Here's the target on paper:


This is what most of us see with our 6 power scopes:



Here's my starting outdoor hold with my 6 o'clock method:



By using controlles moves on my windage and elevation on my front rest it's pretty easy to go to either of these two holds for a right/left wind:



Using the same technique it's easy to quickly get to either of these two holds for a left/right wind.



Our Sporter matches are 30 minutes and after many years I've learned not to panic and start shooting before I get a good idea of what the wind is doing. This method makes it easy to go back to the same spot for each shot. When I first start a target I'm not overly concerned with X's (or even 10's) on the sighters. I want to see repeatability. Then I can slightly adjust my hold for the nuance of the condition.

I'm happy to provide more detail on the steps to getting each type of hold if you'd like. Each are two moves only.

All in all its a much more repeatable method than trying to repeat this:



Merry Christmas!

Bruce Hornstein

 

[PedroS]

Hi Bruce,

Thanks a lot for sharing your method and going deep on description.
Here our sporter rounds are 20min, as for LV/HV. For these two I found it ok, but for sporter is a little tricky, adding more salt to the thing...
Looks like a big dot is key, I'm afraid mine is on the small size.
I'm going to give your approach a sound try, to see if it works for me.

Merry Christmas

 

[MaxxPower]

Hi Bruce,

Thanks a lot for sharing your method and going deep on description.
Here our sporter rounds are 20min, as for LV/HV. For these two I found it ok, but for sporter is a little tricky, adding more salt to the thing...
Looks like a big dot is key, I'm afraid mine is on the small size.
I'm going to give your approach a sound try, to see if it works for me.

Merry Christmas

Pedro,

The dot in the graphic is bigger than mine - just to help the graphics make sense.

For this system I think the smaller the dot the better. Also, I've seen some dots that are not centered on the cross-hairs and to me that would be a huge problem.

My dot is very small and I think that's what make it work so well. Leupold Target Dot with Fine Cross Hair reticle.

Also, one last piece of info about my Sporter system. I use a screw-in cap on my eye piece with a small hole drilled in the center. Then I also have a cap on the front with a hole about twice the size. This accomplishes several things. It makes me place my eye in the exact same position for each shot. Also, I believe it has an optical effect sharpening my image. It also cuts down on the light coming through the scope and helps reduce eye fatigue. After 3 or (even more importantly) 6 targets this really helps.

Good luck!