Forum attitudes

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jlmurphy

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I posted a question yesterday about why wind deflection was greater as the velocity increased, especially at the trans sonic zone. Multiple members posted general comments about my ignorance and their greater knowledge of external ballistics, without actually answering the question. Eventually one member quoted an NRA publication. The answer is not really important, my complaint is in the general attitude of many members here, arrogant and smug, with a greater knowledge of benchrest shooting and not much else. If you notice the shrinking numbers at your matches and wonder why, look in the mirror.
 
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Mr Murphy,
I sure don't have any answers to your question, but I did not pick up on your complaint. I read all the post twice. I must be ignorant as I couldn't read into it what you did. I'm sorry that you feel that way.
Butch
 
Sir,

Is it possiblly just a matter of perspective?

The way I look at forums, it's the same as a bunch of guys sitting around & talking. One might lead off & the next one or two might be following that line, but by the time the conversation really gets going, they're talking across the table & to the guy beside them & more often than not, the original line gets lost.

Take your original ask, by the time it got down to me dropping my 2 cents in, I was talking to the guy who had most recently made a point - but looking again, it likely had application to your question. If I had wanted to respond to you so far down the thread, I would have quoted your original posting just to be sure you knew. A lot of posters do likewise.

Sure, there was a bit of hear there, but wasn't that just two guys firing off at each other?

John
 
I have to agree with Butch. edit and now John too.
I posted to your thread. My comment was not an answer to your question but meant with some humor and the possibility of thought.
Could'nt find the smiley button but figured most would get it.

I know my 45ACP at 165yds requires about 5-6 ft of holdover. Only tried it once on a plow standing on edge. Lets quess 850-900 fps.
Sure did'nt get a lot of ringing steel that day but we all have fun in different ways on different days=)

As I understand your post a friend suggested you use subsonic loads for a 45-70 for long range silouhette so as to avoid the transsonic region.
Hodgen data has only two loads for 45-70 in old trapdoors that starts at under subsonic using trail boss and heavy pills.
Means nothing really except its not a common practise.

For my own edification because I like learning. Just how far is long range silouhette in 45-70 style comps?
Is it really possible to shoot long range with subsonic loads?

I have an old Rolling Block 45-70. Haven't shot it since I was 12-13. Seemed somewhat accurate at the time but anything I hit did say goodnight=)
Best use for the Zucchini and Eggplant in Mom's garden I ever found=)=)
 
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jlmurphy said:
I posted a question yesterday about why wind deflection was greater as the velocity increased, especially at the trans sonic zone. Multiple members posted general comments about my ignorance and their greater knowledge of external ballistics, without actually answering the question. Eventually one member quoted an NRA publication. The answer is not really important, my complaint is in the general attitude of many members here, arrogant and smug, with a greater knowledge of benchrest shooting and not much else. If you notice the shrinking numbers at your matches and wonder why, look in the mirror.
Click to expand...

You're absolutely correct. The problem is that a lot of responders never take the time to pinpoint the question, and then answer it. Some, just go off on a tangent, and never get around to the subject at hand. And some, are just plain rude. Don't let the few who are impolite dissuade you from returning. Ignore the rude ones, and learn as much as you can from the majority who want to give back to their sport.

P.S. There's a feature here that lets you block out responses from those you find unpleasant.
 
Let me clarify. When I read this forum the attitude I sense is of a " Good Ole Boys Club", where the few posting members consider themselves a cut above everyone else. As to my post, I was curious why the amount of deflection was not proportional to velocity, especially at the speed of sound. I knew it had to do with the shock wave, I was hoping one of the members actually knew exactly why. The first reply incorrectly assumed I was concerned with rimfire, even though I mentioned .45-70 cal. Alinwa then posted that it was a well understood subject, but not by me and that I should read up on it. Gene Beggs then posted that I should search the forum, no answer. What I wanted was information from someone that knew more about it than me. I own a machinery fabrication business, with a full machine shop. I started with air rifles for 5 years, built rifles for and competed in long range centerfire, varmint silhouette, tactical, and 600 yard benchrest. It was after a boring 600 yard contest with serious, no fun competitors, that I tried Silhouette, using military bolt rifles. It was much more enjoyable than benchrest , and the atmosphere was exactly what I was looking for. I am now building a Remington rolling block black powder cartridge rifle for Silhouette competition. Perhaps you are too immersed in the small community of short range Benchrest, take a fresh look at some of these threads and maybe you'll see some of the condescension I sense.
 
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jlmurphy

Sorry about the ranting diatribe above. Has nothing to do with you or abintx for that matter.
In a real world I would'nt have posted it or at least deleted it.
I must let it stand for the time being. Its like conduit to the world bleeding negative thoughts off of me.
For now I "need" it to be there. Sorry.

Still interested in the answers to my questions from the prior post.

Your right that most posters to this site practise short range BR. John Kielly is a long ranger I beleive. Theres VooDoo in LR i've yet to comprehend.

Condesecion? Yes you can find that here. Nonetheless this is THE place to find the smartest shooters on the planet.
Only problem is they don't always agree with me=) Thats OK, they're still learning too=)

alinwa is known for drawing fire. Says so right in his signature. Very smart man tho. I've learned much about headspace and fireforming from him.
One thing to keep in mind about Al. He does'nt want to preach or teach. He wants you to do the testing and learn it for yourself. Personally I agree with that theory. It really is the only way to learn.

Gene Beggs is a pioneer. I have all the parts on hand to build a .20 Beggs. Once I get it all to a smith I expect to turn the score shooting world upside down=)
I'm not sure myself but I think the search feature of this site was compromised by the new forum software.
As a pioneer Gene Beggs would'nt know that. His searching is done in his own mind not on a forum.

You should have seen the scalding I took for my first post on this forum. Luckily for me I enjoy a challenge and proved them all wrong.
Unfortunately it only counts if its on a recorded target=) But I know.
 
jlmurphy said:
Let me clarify. When I read this forum the attitude I sense is of a " Good Ole Boys Club", where the few posting members consider themselves a cut above everyone else. As to my post, I was curious why the amount of deflection was not proportional to velocity, especially at the speed of sound. I knew it had to do with the shock wave, I was hoping one of the members actually knew exactly why. The first reply incorrectly assumed I was concerned with rimfire, even though I mentioned .45-70 cal. Alinwa then posted that it was a well understood subject, but not by me and that I should read up on it. Gene Beggs then posted that I should search the forum, no answer. What I wanted was information from someone that knew more about it than me. I own a machinery fabrication business, with a full machine shop. I started with air rifles for 5 years, built rifles for and competed in long range centerfire, varmint silhouette, tactical, and 600 yard benchrest. It was after a boring 600 yard contest with serious, no fun competitors, that I tried Silhouette, using military bolt rifles. It was much more enjoyable than benchrest , and the atmosphere was exactly what I was looking for. I am now building a Remington rolling block black powder cartridge rifle for Silhouette competition. Perhaps you are too immersed in the small community of short range Benchrest, take a fresh look at some of these threads and maybe you'll see some of the condescension I sense.
Click to expand...

It's the Light Deprivation this time of year causing many to be crotchidy. Everyone should supliment their vitimin D intake this time of year with 400mg extra per day until May or June. Worked for me, somewhat.
 
jl let it soak for a while.
Do the btt thing.
Some people only get on here once a week. Some less............
Does Black Powder Silhouette have a forum???
 
BR Central web Site

Mr. Murphy:

I have been reading and posting on this site for a number of years. In the begining I shared some of your feelings. The long time members of this site are of an elite group. They started this site with a narrow focus 100-200 Bench rest Shooting. I will say that Wilbur and his moderators have made great strides in expanding the subject matter and forums on this site. There are other sites that have a broader membership base and maybe are more focused to your inquiries. Two things you will find at this site as the old timers have been there and gotten their "T" shirt. Most of what is said on this forum can be substantiated. I read post on other sites and often cringe with fear some one will get hurt from the BS that is out there. Yes, you may have to develope some thick skin in order to develope a repoir with the members of BR Central. Many of us who post here don't always agree and we may not always be diplomatic with our responses. But we have respect for each others right to have an opinion.

Examples:

I can say Gene Beggs is a wealth of information on wind and the effects it has on projectiles. He has always been more than a gentleman in sharing with other shooters his knowledge.

Butch Lambert is one of those individuals who will thell you what he thinks even if it hurts your feelings. But he also will come to your defense in a second if he feels your are right. He too has a wealth of knowledge and skills. He would give you the shirt off his back if you needed it.

I suggest you chill a little and develope a repoir with the members of BR Central. I'll gaurentee you will learn something.

Alright Gene I want some shooting lessons in the tunnel. And Butch you can adopt me so I can get you to build me a custom rifle like those you made for your grandsons.
Nat Lambeth
 
Francis, I think you may be mistaken, I believe "Cycowlogy-- is the science or study of one eyed bovines", I cud bee rong doe. hCarlse
 
Pull up a chair, Murphy. If you stay here long enough, you will fit right in. As to your question, I don't know.

Concho Bill
 
jlmurphy said:
Let me clarify. When I read this forum the attitude I sense is of a " Good Ole Boys Club", where the few posting members consider themselves a cut above everyone else. As to my post, I was curious why the amount of deflection was not proportional to velocity, especially at the speed of sound. I knew it had to do with the shock wave . . .
Click to expand...
[emphasis mine]

Not sure I know this, not even if it is true, let alone the science behind it if true. The trans-sonic region is one us centerfire shooters all try to avoid, even those of who shoot 1,000 yards.

From the behavior of pistol bullets in the trans-sonic region, their drag characteristics are not identical. Don't know why, don't know anyone who knows why. Until that's explained, I'd be hard pressed to go along with "it's the shock wave" -- they all form the shock wave.

There are a lot of old wives tales floating about. There are even more people who report them as gospel, then get mad when questioned. You look in the mirror. If you want science rather than revealed truth, Robert McCoy's books would be the best place to look, or maybe Brian Litz's new book on exterior ballistics.

If benchrest's dwindling numbers can only be solved by picking up people with your attitude, I say let the numbers dwindle. I have to deal with such people at work. I shoot benchrest for fun.
 
I didn't read the original post so I have no idea how rudely you were treated. I do know that anyone expecting any web site forum to play amature psycology to sooth egos is likely to be disappointed. Ask your question and take the responses as they come or not.

So far as the depth of knowledge here being mostly limited to BR...well, it IS a BR site and says so right at the top! We rarely do do that with .30-30s, .458s, etc. ??
 
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I read that thread and I knew what was coming. It could be predicted when the first poster implied "something strange and fearful happens when a bullet goes through the transonic region". Watch, I'll start it again: Nothing happens to a bullet when it's velocity changes from sonic to subsonic, or subsonic to sonic. There is no "shock wave" effect. All that takes place is a change in the slope of the curve that describes the effect of wind. It's like you were climbing a hill, when you come to a place that the hill becomes steeper, or less steep, it simply becomes harder ,or easier to climb the hill. I'll go out on a limb here and say bullets might be described as "going very gently" into or out of the transonic region!

Now, let's hear from all the experts who know better! I'm sure there will be many who think they could almost hear their bullet hitting a wall in this terrible region called "transonic". Truth is it's difficult to pin point exactly where this region is. Probably it can only be done mathematically and somewhat arbitrarily.
 
I haven't been here too long and thus far have enjoyed my time and learned something in the process.

Had one snide remark where the poster assumed I was missing the point but other than that, I have no issues.

I think you need to stand up for yourself a little in the threads. That usually will back unhelpful people off a little and get the good folks with the knowledge to post.
 
I had very bad luck on this forum some while ago. Six or eight of the "old hands' on the forum came back to my posting as very insulting. The forum's manager himself posted me that I was "ignorant," and that my comment just showed a lot of ignorance. This is "piling on," as they say in football. Someone (like me, I suppose) shows a lack of understanding, and one by one, the old timers come on and use the guy as a punching bag.

This is about the most unpleasant shooting forum I've ever visited, and I belong to several.

There's some baloney out there that members of this forum want to help newcomers get into the sport. Please don't believe it.

I rarely visit any more, and even more rarely do I risk posting anything.
 
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