josh shrum
New member
Are you insinuating that rifles are not weighed at score shoots?
Feedback From The Tunnel
- Thread starter Gene Beggs
- Start date
Are you insinuating that rifles are not weighed at score shoots?
J
Jim Pag
Guest
Josh. Don't let it bother you bro.
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jimmymac
J McGregor
You got that right.
It would be much better to get back to the topic at hand which is not score versus group.
It would be much better to get back to the topic at hand which is not score versus group.
J
Jim Pag
Guest
I agree. This score vs group BS is just that, BS. Who cares what you shoot as long as you shoot, it's all good.
Gene Beggs
Active member
yes, been hanging around the keyboard way to muchHave been really busy though.
Between getting bbl.'s chambered up for the guys, getting ready for the Cactus, trying to find quality practice time on the range. Time really gets away for sure.
It has been a good br off season though. Holding tuner classes out here on my range has been a lot of fun. Charlene keeps us all fed and having a place for everybody to stay helps to. If we need to work on a gun in the shop it's only a minutes walk to get there.
Hey Jim! Don't sweat it, you will love a tuner! To bad you don't live closer, would have you up and running pretty quick. I have guys coming from out of state but not that far. All the same, the invitation is open for you to come.
Richard
Hey Richard, I know what you mean about spending too much time at the computer. Me too.
Sounds like you have a benchrester's dream setup there. Good for you for the help you give others by training, chambering etc. Only one problem though. Word gets out and if you don't watch it you will get so busy you won't have time for your own work.
I sure am looking forward to Phoenix. I missed last year due to illness but come hell or high water, I'll be there this time.
Later,
Gene Beggs
M
mks
Guest
Thanks to Jerry and Mike who offered advice on how to interpret these groups. To answer Mike, 4 was not tested.
The "rest of the story" is that these were just the first three of 10-shot groups. See the attached images for the first 5 and all 10. For 3 shots, tuner 8 gives the smaller 0.146" group, versus 0.233" for tuner 6. For five shots, tuner 6 instead gives the smaller 0.247" group, versus 0.259" for tuner 8. For 10 shots, tuner 6 again gives the smaller 0.319" group, versus 0.375" for tuner 8.
The shapes of the groups also change. The tuner 8 group is sort of round for 3 shots, but becomes vertical for 10 shots. The tuner 6 group is diagonal for 3 shots, but becomes horizontal for 10 shots. The statistical confidence that even the 10-shot groups are different from each other is only 35%.
I don't think these results are atypical. Even 10-shot groups aren't enough to say with confidence which tuner setting is best. To me, this is a compelling motivation to want to know more about the dynamics of tuners. We simply don't have enough time during a match to test tuner adjustments with sound statistical procedures. By knowing what variables affect tune and how, it should be possible to preset the tuner and shoot better. Maybe we will get there some day.
Currently, we are taking a stab in the dark. If there are eight marks between tune windows, and, lets say, two marks off perfect tune still produces decent groups, then we have five chances in eight that our tune is close. Not bad odds. I think this may be where we are now.
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Thanks to Jerry and Mike who offered advice on how to interpret these groups. To answer Mike, 4 was not tested.
The "rest of the story" is that these were just the first three of 10-shot groups. See the attached images for the first 5 and all 10. For 3 shots, tuner 8 gives the smaller 0.146" group, versus 0.233" for tuner 6. For five shots, tuner 6 instead gives the smaller 0.247" group, versus 0.259" for tuner 8. For 10 shots, tuner 6 again gives the smaller 0.319" group, versus 0.375" for tuner 8.
The shapes of the groups also change. The tuner 8 group is sort of round for 3 shots, but becomes vertical for 10 shots. The tuner 6 group is diagonal for 3 shots, but becomes horizontal for 10 shots. The statistical confidence that even the 10-shot groups are different from each other is only 35%.
I don't think these results are atypical. Even 10-shot groups aren't enough to say with confidence which tuner setting is best. To me, this is a compelling motivation to want to know more about the dynamics of tuners. We simply don't have enough time during a match to test tuner adjustments with sound statistical procedures. By knowing what variables affect tune and how, it should be possible to preset the tuner and shoot better. Maybe we will get there some day.
Currently, we are taking a stab in the dark. If there are eight marks between tune windows, and, lets say, two marks off perfect tune still produces decent groups, then we have five chances in eight that our tune is close. Not bad odds. I think this may be where we are now.
Hi Keith,
You know your gun and tuner better than anyone. Once you can correllate group size and shape to tuner settings, the rest is pretty easy. I can't disagree that more shots are statistically more significant, at all. That said, if you shoot enough shots into a group, especially outdoors, you'll get outliers. The old adage, if 2 shots are big, a third can't make it smaller is true, too.
I look for very repeatable patterns. They are almost always evident, but yes, more shots would have to be at least somewhat better. Something that I don't think has been mentioned is that the mass on the end of the barrel does make the gun shoot worse when out of tune than without.
Before anyone starts jumping up and down about that statement, consider this...I consider it a good thing because it clarifies when and how far I need to move my tuner. I've never had a good group when it was completely out of tune. The groups are actually bigger than they would be without a tuner. That's what I need...a gun that will scream at me when it needs tuning, rather than one that shoots just well enough to get beat, due to a tune condition. Tuners with some weight to them do this well and make reading and adjusting for tune, as simple as can be. I think it was Gene that used the analogy of it being like turning the focus/parallax ring on an old Leupold. It's very much just like that.
Sorry it took a while to reply. I was out shooting a match. It was an enjoyable day and some interesting conditions at times.
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Dave Coots
64 Chevy 409 10.42 129
Has anyone besides me ever had a 3 shot group LIE?
Dave
Dave
Dave,
Richard
Happens alot to me when testing. I might start with 3 shot groups but I always qualify the rifle with 5 shot groups.
Richard
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Sure! Tuners do act more predictably than without though, IME. Same reasons I just mentioned. Clear changes in tune, being the point.
A point to add
increasing the length of the bbl as much as possible helps when using a tuner. Alot of this was mentioned in earlier posts but due to the length of this thread thought it would be good to bring this out again.
Probably we need to be looking at a "tuner contour" bbl. A contour close to a Rem Varmint will be close.
They end up at around 75oz chambered up at 26" Could shorten that up some and run a reverse taper for the last couple inches so a 7/8 tuner will fit.
As long as it meets rule specs for LV contour there is nothing wrong with taking material out of the middle of the bbl is there?
Richard
increasing the length of the bbl as much as possible helps when using a tuner. Alot of this was mentioned in earlier posts but due to the length of this thread thought it would be good to bring this out again.
Probably we need to be looking at a "tuner contour" bbl. A contour close to a Rem Varmint will be close.
They end up at around 75oz chambered up at 26" Could shorten that up some and run a reverse taper for the last couple inches so a 7/8 tuner will fit.
As long as it meets rule specs for LV contour there is nothing wrong with taking material out of the middle of the bbl is there?
Richard
mwezell
Mike Ezell
Fergus Bailey
New member
I am playing around with tuning at the muzzle only, not with load/seating depth like I usually would. I have a few questions I would like to run past you all. Also, for the record I am using a forward of the muzzle style tuner with a 32TPI thread, not a Beggs style behind the muzzle) :
1) If I am starting out with a tuner which is essentially at "zero" position, which direction do I move to tune the results - or doesn't it matter?
2) How much do I move at a time? I see references to moving small amounts, but I have no "marks" so not too sure if I am still moving too coarse.
3) What distance is best to tune at - 100 or 200? Granted at a match we can only test a load at whatever yardage we are shooting. But if I am testing at the range pre-match, whats the best way to go?
4) If I get a good tune with given bullet/load, should I expect the barrel to want to shoot with a different bullet, or is it a whole start over proposition?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts
1) If I am starting out with a tuner which is essentially at "zero" position, which direction do I move to tune the results - or doesn't it matter?
2) How much do I move at a time? I see references to moving small amounts, but I have no "marks" so not too sure if I am still moving too coarse.
3) What distance is best to tune at - 100 or 200? Granted at a match we can only test a load at whatever yardage we are shooting. But if I am testing at the range pre-match, whats the best way to go?
4) If I get a good tune with given bullet/load, should I expect the barrel to want to shoot with a different bullet, or is it a whole start over proposition?
Thanks in advance for your thoughts
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Coots, 3 3 shot groups at a setting tells more about the tune than a single 3 shot group does.
Fergus, Q#2,from a full retract, move a full turn for about 5 turns, you will a pattern, go to that turn then 1/2 turn up and back, then 1/4 turn, etc. within that turn. If at the 5th turn, groups improve go further...use a system, don’t just randomly turn...clean and foul as needed..the trouble with a centerfire, thebarrel wears some with each snot.
Q#3,IMO, if it won’t shoot at 100, it sure won’t shoot at 200. In ideal conditions you can refine at 200.
Q#4,IMO, on a different load, compare how THAT load shot before. You can’t compare 2 loads to each other.
After all, they are different loads.
.
I can only relate my experience, but I'll give it a go.
It really doesn't matter where you start. The tune will generally repeat several times in one rotation of the tuner. I start with the tuner screwed all the way in and then back out two full turns. I think Mike starts all the way out and in two turns. Either way works. Shoot a 3 shot group. Only two shots are necessary if you see a lot of vertical. A third won't make it smaller. I should also add that the first time it is best to tune in the best conditions possible for clarity. It won't matter which direction you move. If the next group is larger you went the wrong way. If smaller, but still has vertical, continue in the same direction. I usually make no move larger than 1/8" at a time. My experience is, tuning @100 is easier. The longer the distance, the more gets lost in the condition and the accuracy of the rifle, but that's just me. I should also point out again that the tuner won't make the barrel any better, it will just help you get to the best place quicker. My experience is that if you change a component start from where you are and shoot a group. Adjust as necessary. Same as the first match of the day. This is a simple procedure. It's easier to do than explain.
One other note I should add. Mike E says he can tune out horizontal as well as vertical. I don't disagree as he has had more experience than me. But I have never been able to do it. I have to tune horizontal with seating depth.
Rick
Here is a 3-shot group at 200 yards shot with a Krieger barrel that had been set back. I would hate to depend on this kind of performance based on this small sample.
Attachments
mwezell
Mike Ezell
That sums it up well. I too start with the tuner mostly in. I run it all the way in, then back it off 1/2-1 full turn before I shoot and tune. I just bring zero back to the top, usually.
Gene Beggs
Active member
Seating Depth And Tuners
Much has been said and written about bullet seating depth. Some benchresters place great emphasis on tuning by varying seating depth while I am quite the opposite. After fifteen years experience in the wind free environment of the West Texas Tunnel, I have found that there is only one 'best' seating depth for short range group shooting; "Just Off The Lands!"
That's right, 'just off the lands' or maybe even .005 or .010 jump. I know, there are those that will say I'm crazy and argue otherwise till the cows come home, but that is what I have observed during my 30 years of short range group shooting. Many shooters start at 'jam' and work back off that in .003 to .005 increments. Others prefer to start just barely touching and go 'in' .003 to .005 at a time until the group looks right. I say that just adds complexity to the tune. Invariably, I have found that horizontal dispersion does not go away until I am at least .015 off jam and .020 to .030 off jam does not change the group at all.
Some will argue that seating bullets into the lands ensures perfect alignment with the bore. They further state that if there is any runout in the loaded round when seated off the lands that the bullets will not align properly when they enter the leade/bore. I don't believe that and what I have observed for many years proves it is not true.
When using a tuner to fine tune the rifle, it is very important to have every round loaded exactly the same. That includes bullet seating depth. If you seat bullets 'into the lands' it places great emphasis on neck tension. Again I say, the best seating depth for short range group shooting is, "Just Off The lands." (Close but not sticking into the lands.)
Don't take my word for it; try it yourself. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Life will also be far less complicated.
Later,
Gene Beggs
Much has been said and written about bullet seating depth. Some benchresters place great emphasis on tuning by varying seating depth while I am quite the opposite. After fifteen years experience in the wind free environment of the West Texas Tunnel, I have found that there is only one 'best' seating depth for short range group shooting; "Just Off The Lands!"
That's right, 'just off the lands' or maybe even .005 or .010 jump. I know, there are those that will say I'm crazy and argue otherwise till the cows come home, but that is what I have observed during my 30 years of short range group shooting. Many shooters start at 'jam' and work back off that in .003 to .005 increments. Others prefer to start just barely touching and go 'in' .003 to .005 at a time until the group looks right. I say that just adds complexity to the tune. Invariably, I have found that horizontal dispersion does not go away until I am at least .015 off jam and .020 to .030 off jam does not change the group at all.
Some will argue that seating bullets into the lands ensures perfect alignment with the bore. They further state that if there is any runout in the loaded round when seated off the lands that the bullets will not align properly when they enter the leade/bore. I don't believe that and what I have observed for many years proves it is not true.
When using a tuner to fine tune the rifle, it is very important to have every round loaded exactly the same. That includes bullet seating depth. If you seat bullets 'into the lands' it places great emphasis on neck tension. Again I say, the best seating depth for short range group shooting is, "Just Off The lands." (Close but not sticking into the lands.)
Don't take my word for it; try it yourself. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Life will also be far less complicated.
Later,
Gene Beggs
M
mks
Guest
Wow, nice group!
A good example that outliers can happen at any time, and they can be shots that produce really large groups, which are pretty obvious, or they can produce small groups that are less so. Statistics tells us that large sample size reduces the effects of outliers because the results are averaged over more shots.
Tim Singleton
Member
I'm waiting on the advent of a tuner that can tune out stupid!
