Fast!!!

Jackie
The way I see it, this device does not violate any of what you are pointing out

Nothing will happen unless you actuate this device "by hand" It will not function without using your hand to actuate it. It will do nothing automatically like a machine does. Your lathe feeds automatically when you flip the feed lever. If you chose to you can feed it manually, or by hand.

The rifle is still fired “single shot” "one round at a time"
It’s not a "similar device” to a clip or magazine in that it does not attach to, or touch the rifle in any way

I again ask you, if it did not sit quite so close to the action and instead was 3/8 of an inch or ½ inch away and you had to put your finger between it and the gun to help guide the cartridge into the action would that make it legal ??? If that is not far enough away from the action, then how far from the loading port does it have to be to be legal, in your opinion???

Gene Bukys
 
gene,
wickapedia is not "published", it is internet information...with no proofing of the info. anyone can post nearly anything and they will list it in thier information. there is no editing/no proofing/no checking/ no known dr of this or that to verify anything in wick..period..it is internet information...not verified DATA.

MY INFO comes from the standard of american education ...the american heritage dictionary. second college edition. published 1982. thier staff list in just under 8 pages. professionals in thier fields. published in boston by houghton mifflin. this is a hard copy, current edtitions are available on disc or thru subscription.
the tag line of thier dictionary is "the single source for people who need to be right".

there is a difference between a magazine and a clip......ask any drill sargent.....old enough to have seen and used both. the garand is a CLIP fed rifle...the magazine that the clip goes into is an integral part of the rifle. the m14 rifle is a MAGAZINE fed rifle...with a detachable box magazine.
a clip...just holds ammo.
a magazine is typically a metal box with a floorplate, a follower and a spring. the magazine assists the feeding by moving the rounds to the top of the box......clips are stationary..they hold only...no spring, no assist.

mike in co
Gene B said:
Mike

If my source is poor, just what is the good source of your definition????

Also please provide the "standing" and complete documentation for the information source that you have provided. otherwise it carries less weight than the source that I quoted.

Jackie
I have no idea what your talking about ????


Jerry
I am aware of the gravity feed mechanism that Lester had tried to use. I was not aware that it was you that had built them -- I should have been able to guess though.
I also understand that the reason that particular device was deemed to be illegal was because it was attached to the rifle and did not stand alone.

Gene Bukys
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Jackie
BTW

Mr Gonzales is presenting this device to the Board of Directors at this years meeting in Midland for approval -- The world federation has already approved it for use at world finals.
 
Gene B said:
Hope to be
An AK47 does not have a magazine. It has a clip and your right the clip is attached to the rifle and most of the cartridges are outside the physical rifle

I don't know about a similar device having been used in Europe and being declared illegal??? I’ve been on 7 world teams and have shot all around the world.

What I do know for sure is that the World Benchrest Federation has ruled on this device and has declared it to be legal !! Gram did this just this week.
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Gene,

Being a non-native English speaking person I am sorry that I am not able to distinguish between a magazine and a clip. Still I do not really see the importance on the difference.

On the fact that a similar devise was seen in northern Europe about 10 years ago or so (I have a fragile memory when it comes to years) you have to trust me on that. Perhaps not as well made as this one, however the idea was more or less the same. And this devise was never shown at any WBC as far as I know, so I guess that might have been one reason for you not to have seen this on your trips to different WBC’s.

I do have a small problem understand why you focus so strongly on this being manually operated. I mean, even if the movement of the bolt had triggered this devise to feed in a new cartridge the bolt itself is manually operated – so what would be the difference? Put a photo cell on the devise that is able to see when the bolt is all the way back, still manually operated since you are pulling the bolt all the way back to trigger the photo cell to “see” what’s going on?

I have to add that I have no problems with a devise like this, my problem is that I am not able to see how this could be legal given the current rule book and the intention of the rules made. If benchrest shooting is supposed to walk down the path of “shooting 5 bullets in the shortest possible time” then let’s try it and evaluate it in a few years time to see how many records that have been broken. But my personal view on this is that if this will be/is legal what is really stopping us from taking a few steps more when it comes to feeding the rifle more or less automatic other than a potential safety issue?
 
Mike
I have exactly that same hard copy dictionary in my hand right now. It's exactly the same source that you quoted.

I looked up clip and I do not see the definition that you have given for clip ???

My American Heritage Dictionary has two different definitions for the word clip. One refers to the act of cutting off or cutting out with shears or scissors. It continues on about cutting things or making them shorter.

The other clip is defined as 1. A device for gripping, clasp, fastener. 2. A flange on the top of a horse shoe. 3. A cartridge clip

Then it goes on to talk about to grip securely, and talks about a clip in football. It says nothing more than that about the word's use with regard to a rifle. So I still ask you where you got the definitions that you presented???? Your definitions are not in my exact copy of the same source that you have given???


Gene Bukys
 
Mike
I apologize --- after reading my posting it occurred to me to look up cartridge clip --- and so I did ---- Your definition is right on with what is in the Heritage Dictionary under "cartridge clip"

Sorry

Gene Bukys
 
another question

Since we're having this discussion any way, let me ask another question?

Does anybody know why a clip or magazine is illegal in benchrest??? What is the real intent of the rule???? It can't be safety because a hunter class rifle must have a magazine. Why do we have these words in our rule book???

Gene Bukys
 
I believe the rule was created because backer systems of the period could not deal with a 2-3 second spacing of shots.
 
This is getting good. Other than the wording in the rule book, is there another reason some of you are opposed to this device? Just curious. For the record, I can see Jackie's point of view and I can see Gene's regarding how the rulebook is worded.

Glenn, good call on helping people with disabilities. That's using your noggin...........
 
I have seen two rifles used in NBRSA Sanctioned shoots that have an "angled" port at either 10:00 or 2:00(cannot remember which side) bored out in the action. After one inserts the first round in the chamber ( and closes the bolt ) the next live round is placed in that port opening. Upon extraction/ejection, the new round drops into the action and is then ready to be fed into the chamber when the bolt is closed. One simply places the next live round in the ready port and on and on. The "next live round" in not placed into the action by hand, rather it is placed "on " the action. Is this too legal? Jan
 
I noticed that the rifle was not fired during the filming. I wonder if it will work as smoothly when recoil is factored into the equation. Good shooting...James
 
no problem gene.
you contribute a bunch to our sport...i'm just pretty narrow minded on a couple of words that are commonly misused in the shooting world.
thanks
mike in co
Gene B said:
Mike
I apologize --- after reading my posting it occurred to me to look up cartridge clip --- and so I did ---- Your definition is right on with what is in the Heritage Dictionary under "cartridge clip"

Sorry

Gene Bukys
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Although I have no issue with accommodations for the physically handicapped, for the rest of us, I think that there is a difference between loaded by hand, which to me means placed in the action using ones hand to carry the round from where it has been stored, to a position within the action that only requires closing the bolt to complete chambering of the round, and actuated by hand, which would describe what I see in the video. (If your records are going to have continuity I would go slowly here.)

While we are on the subject of disabilities, I think that if we are going to make provisions for the physically handicapped, that equal consideration should be given to the mentally challenged. Looking back, I seem to remember one 200 yard group that was spoiled, when in the heat of battle, I reverted to a center of mothball hold, after starting the group holding at 6:00. ( I had just changed over.) Man, I really could have used a Mulligan about then ;-) I can see it now. Shooter stands up and loudly announces "Brain F---", whereupon the referee comes to his bench, looks through his scope, nods sagely in agreement, noting the errant shot special attention by the scorer, and the shooter continues on, adding an additional shot. Just think how this would add interest for spectators.
 
I like the ability to use imagination and mechanical skills....its a great idea and I have arthritis so bad in my fingers it would be a wonderful aid for me.....and if this is "mechanical" rather than "by hand"...then what about a Farley rest?...or that one with the hydraulic cylinder that does windage (cant think of the name,,,grrr) ....these use mechanical means to guide the rifle during the course of fire!!??...I think as long as it doesnt touch the gun it should be allowed,,,Roger
 
Gene, I guess we would have to get out the minutes of the meetings way back when all of these rules were instituted and see what the originators had in mind. If it was a safety issue, we have probably gotten past that.

The same can be said for the stock rules, the barrel contour rules, the sand bag rules, and a miriad of other things in the Rule Book that have to be adhered too. From reading past minutes in the archives, it was apparent that the founders were very contientious of making sure that our "Rifles" did indeed look like Rifles.

But the magazine-clip thing. Heck, the vast majority of Rifles produced do have the capability to feed rounds by simply cycling the bolt.

I think you and I agree with what James Mock said. What we have right now is a video of a man sitting at a table cycling a Rifle that is not recoiling, or subjected to any of the other rigors of the ignition and recoil proccess. The realities of Competition might make all of this a mute point. If the mechanism doesn't perform perfect every time and drop that round exactly where it is supposed to be, what's the point.

We can only assume that the inventor has taken the thing to the range and proven it's capabilities.

Besides, for us that get to watch you shoot, I still find it hard to believe that this gizmo could improve on what you do. The way you reach up, place that round in, and then go to that rear bag to aquire your aim is done in seconds, and you do it right, every time. ............jackie
 
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Roger,
The "guiding means" thing is in reference to creating a return to battery situation with a bag gun. There is nothing in the book that limits how a front rest may work, as long as it does not create a situation where a rifle does not have to be reaimed for each shot. Of course there are bag issues, that are separate from those concerning the mechanisms of front rests.
Boyd
 
Roger, the difference is, there is nothing in the rules that prohibit the Farley Style Rest, and hydraulic windage adjusters. The term guiding means refers to true return to batterry capability, which is define as the ability to shoot the Rifle without having to re-aim it after each shot. No bag Gun can do that. A whiz bang stick shift front rest offers no more Rifle stability than an old Hart.

I think shooters are getting the idea that I am against this innovation. I am not, as long as it passes the muster of the rule book.It is just my personal opinion that it does not, but I am nothing more than a single dues paying member of both Sanctioning Bodies. If the BOD decides it is legal, then as a mamber, I will accept that.

In my opinion, it is no different than the tuner thing. This was all done properly before any of us could use it in Competition. The idea was submitted, the BOD acted, the Memebership voted, and what was not legal before, (mainly due to the barrel contour rule), is now legal.


I would amagine that if this feeding mechanism is approved, the BOD will vote to to change the wording in the rule book to reflect their decision...........jackie
 
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IMHO this contraption is illegal according to the rule book and a similar contraption was deemed illegal years go (Bruno). Presented to the board for a vote would be the proper route. I for one would vote against for the reason that more change to the founders intent will erode our sport. Whats next? Semi auto actions? Call your director and vote.
 
lol
you are afraid of something better than a bolt gun...
both sanctioning bodies claim the sport of better rifle accuracy...it does not say bolt gun only accuracy.
be open to change.
most of you scoff at ar rifle accuracy...but are too scared to let them in your class.
mike in co
JDS said:
IMHO this contraption is illegal according to the rule book and a similar contraption was deemed illegal years go (Bruno). Presented to the board for a vote would be the proper route. I for one would vote against for the reason that more change to the founders intent will erode our sport. Whats next? Semi auto actions? Call your director and vote.
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