Exact Differences Between These 2 Leupolds?

Bill,

I have read somewhere that once upon a time, the Mark 4 had a heavier tube & greater adjustment range, but in the last couple of years (models?), the difference has been the shape of the twiddly bits. That's the anecdotal bit.

One of my F class scopes is a VX III, the latest model with 90 MOA adjustment. I only just received it as a replacement for an earlier 72 MOA that was returned to the factory with suspect tracking & went MOA. If cosmetics are the only difference between the III & 4, then I would opt for the VX III because it has protective caps that screw over the knobs when they're not in use.

I don't like the idea of the knobs being exposed & there to be knocked off zero or misteriously moved by a passing spirit - even though I used SWFA scopes with that issue for a long time.

John
 
and the difference is

i believe the mark 4 has mil-dot other than that the biggest difference is $300
 
My research shows the Mil Dot in the Mark 4 is accurately calibrated regardless of zoom position. Where in the VX-III the Mil dot is only accurate with full zoom.

Not a big Rifle shooter but I think what it means the knobs turns won't be true to the offset you desire unless U zoom the VX-III.

Hope I explained this right as this was direct from Leupold

Ian
 
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That describes the difference (sort of) between a first-focal-plane scope and a second-focal-plane scope... but very few of Leupold's scopes, MkIV or otherwise are FFP. I'm pretty sure those particular models (high magnification) are *not*.

John pretty much nailed it. The older MkIV Ultra scopes had huge amounts of adjustment (being fixed 10x and 16x) and the tall turrets to go with. The MkIV knobs were a popular refit option on the Vari-X III scopes, and around the time the VX-III series came out (give or take a bit), they started making a somewhat 'commercialized' MkIV series - basically VX-III's w/ MkIV knobs. The internals *may* have been upgraded somewhat, but I think the general consensus is that they are basically sheep in wolf's clothing compared to the original MkIV Ultras.
 
So, and correct me if I'm wrong. The Mark IV 8.5-25X isn't that great of a buy anymore. I had heard the same thing about the tubes being thicker, but no longer. Seeing as the VX-III 8.5-25X doesn't come from the factory with a Mil-Dot, it's ability to track is more or less a moot point, as I'm not interested in having the scope modified. It kind of surprises me that Leupold would "pull a fast one" like that. I was watching an old video tape I had titled, "The One Mile Shot". David Tubb was shooting at one mile with a 6.5-.284 and had a Mark IV Leupold on top. The knobs were much taller than the ones they now show on the present Mark IV's. He also mentioned the scope had something like 120 minutes of elevation adjustment. Perhaps the scope was modified by Leupold, I don't know. If it was he didn't mention it. Anyway, the VX-III is looking better and better for the money. Bill T.
 
billt said:
I was watching an old video tape I had titled, "The One Mile Shot". David Tubb was shooting at one mile with a 6.5-.284 and had a Mark IV Leupold on top. The knobs were much taller than the ones they now show on the present Mark IV's. He also mentioned the scope had something like 120 minutes of elevation adjustment.
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Bill,

You might have a look at the Leupold web site. The 16X still has 140 MOA elevation & that was maybe the scope in use.

John
 
You could very well be right. He never mentioned the magnification but I think the Mark IV 16X was the scope he was using. I say that because I noticed he had the scope mounted quite far forward. The distance of the length of the 30 MM portion of the rear tube is only 1.4 inches long. Midway refers to this length as "D" length in their Technical Information drawing. That doesn't allow for much rearward scope placement, which would explain the scope being so far forward. Bill T.
 
Just curious, does anyone know what 140 MOA trigs out to in 1,760 yards? He did mentioned the bullet dropped 115 feet in one mile. Bill T.
 
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Thanks Fred. I'm glad I asked, my numbers are different. Math gets the better of me sometimes. :confused: Bill T.
 
Angle in MOA = 60 arctan (drop/range)

Note that both drop and range need to be in the same units - both in feet, both in yards, both in inches or both in meters. Also the 60 multiplier applies when your calculator [or slide rule for the OLD engineers] gives the arctan in degrees.

Or as it was asked:

drop = range x tan(angle in MOA/60)
 
For those using MS Excel - Excel deals with angles in radians for which the formulas become:

Angle in MOA = 3437.75 arctan (drop/range)

Note that both drop and range need to be in the same units - both in feet, both in yards, both in inches or both in meters. Also the 3437.75 multiplier applies when your calculator [or slide rule for the OLD engineers] gives the arctan in degrees.

Or as it was asked:

drop = range x tan(angle in MOA/3437.75)
 
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it's marketing, mostly.

billt said:
billt said:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=320171

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=217984&t=22164010

Other than reticle and adjustment knobs, they seem quite equal. Both have large amounts of elevation adjustment, and the same magnification. I was just wondering exactly what the extra $300.00 buys in the Mark IV, and would the VX III be at any disadvantage over it in F-Class? Bill T.
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Bill, the original Mark 4 Leupold scope was built in fixed power models (6x, 10x, 16x, and perhaps 20x), and was called 'Ultra'. Then it became the Mark 4. The 6x and 20x version were way less common than the 10x and 16x models. Etched glass reticles, a maintube wall thickness of 0.100". 100+ MOA in the 10x model, and 140 MOA of elevation in the 16x model. Typically configured with M1 target knobs (tall and heavy duty, with no screw off covers).

Leupold pulled a marketing fast one when they re-named the Vari-X III (VX-III, VX3, whatever) as the Mark 4 Variable. It was a marketing ploy. These never featured, nor do they now feature, the heavier tube thickness of the fixed power Mark 4. They feature wire reticles, not etched glass. Leupold changed the lens coating hype to "index matched lenses" instead of MultiCoat 4. Whatever. Can you see the difference? I cannot. :)

Add M1 target knobs and a mildot reticle, and it's still not the equivalent to the fixed power original Mark 4. In fact, it will have about 72 MOA of 'up', and its 6.5-20x50 cousin has about the same (although Leupold advertises 70 MOA of 'up' if I recall). What you need to decide is if the mildot reticle and M1 target knobs are worth $300 more. If you sent a Vari-X III, with standard turrets and a, say, duplex reticle, to Leupold for a changeout to the M1 knobs and mildot reticle, it would probably cost you about $300.

Will either of those make you shoot better? Almost certainly not. But in the world of tactical rifles, such things are considered very tacti-cool. :)

By the way, the fixed power Mark 4 Leupold scopes have a relatively short span -- for your rear scope ring -- behind the turret saddle. This can be a bit challenging to get optimum eye relief position, so choose your rings (not too wide, and Picatinny or Weaver style recommended) and scope base (lots of slots, and Picatinny or Weaver style of course to match) accordingly.

The fixed power Mark 4 scopes were quite a bit more expensive ($1,200 new, even several years ago) vs. the VX3 (variable Mark 4) items, but that gap seems to be shrinking. Why? Who knows!
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Bill,

Thanks much for the informative post. I, like many, have had a lot of difficulty with distinguishing the differences with the Leupold models since they started in with all of this "name changing". Vari-X to VX to whatever. This has to be the worst attempt at marketing since "New Coke". I'm glad you mentioned the fixed power Mark IV's. Is the fixed power 16X Mark IV still made like it was in the "good 'ol days"? This model still lists 140 MOA of elevation adjustment, but has the limited rear mounting area that you mentioned. It still has the tall adjustment knobs. I just wondered if Leupold has "cheapened it up", or retained the thicker main tube, glass etched reticle, ect. on that model? Midway currently lists it for around $1,250.00 dealer price. Bill T.
 
Fear not, the original (fixed) Mk 4 is still a beast

billt said:
I just wondered if Leupold has "cheapened it up", or retained the thicker main tube, glass etched reticle, ect. on that model? Midway currently lists it for around $1,250.00 dealer price. Bill T.
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Bill, these scopes are still built to the sturdy standards. Whether Leupold has applied their newest lens coatings, I don't know, but you might have a look at their online information, in the 'tactical/law enforcement' category.

The Midway 'dealer' price seems to be right in line, at least as compared to Jerry's Sport Center (a largish wholesale distributor). Here's the scoop from JSC:

JSC Number LEU50541
Manufacturer LEUPOLD OPTICS [Website]
Man. Number 50541
Title LEUPOLD MARK 4 M1 16X40 3/4MIL
Description LEUPOLD SCOPE RIFLE LAW ENFORCEMENT MARK 4 LR/T, 30MM TUBE, M1-16X40MM, MIL. DOT RETICLE, MULTICOAT 4, MATTE FINISH
Quantity Price None
Price Each $1,246.60

JSC Number LEU60095
Manufacturer LEUPOLD OPTICS [Website]
Man. Number 60095
Title LEUPOLD MK4 16X40 M1 TMR MATTE
Description LEUPOLD SCOPE RIFLE MARK 4 LR/T, 30MM TUBE, 16X40MM M1, TMR RETICLE, MATTE FINISH
Quantity Price None
Price Each $1,246.60

If you're not opposed to gently used gear, you just might put a Want To Buy ad out there, especially on some of the tactical shooting websites (like SnipersHide and Sniper Country). It's not uncommon to find these fixed Mark 4 models, 10x or 16x, for about $900.

Good luck, whatever you choose.
 
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