Electronic Scoring

We're not "coming down" as I understand

Further, the guys that are making the rules probably know all there is to know about such stuff. Whatever they finally decide will be good. I don't know, they might have finally decided.

I'm suggesting, purely suggesting, that the matter be thought out to a successful extent.

One item I haven't seen a comment about is a charge for protesting a scored shot. Extra money for the hosting club as I see it. The charge for protesting a single bull should not be out of bounds. High enough to prevent useless protest, and low enough to encourage protest. Find that dollar amount and all will be well....almost.

Again, look around to see how others do it on the long term.
 
Further, the guys that are making the rules probably know all there is to know about such stuff. Whatever they finally decide will be good. I don't know, they might have finally decided.

I'm suggesting, purely suggesting, that the matter be thought out to a successful extent.

One item I haven't seen a comment about is a charge for protesting a scored shot. Extra money for the hosting club as I see it. The charge for protesting a single bull should not be out of bounds. High enough to prevent useless protest, and low enough to encourage protest. Find that dollar amount and all will be well....almost.

Again, look around to see how others do it on the long term.

“coming down” in the context I used it, meant I have no great opinion, one way or the other (electronic or manual scoring). My only interest is that either present an accurate recording of the results.

The ARA guys seem happy enough with their electronic scoring and the WBSF (and others) are happy with manual scoring. I don’t see either making any changes in the near future.

Regards the cost of a protest, 20 Euro / $20 seems to be the norm around the world. As far as I’m aware the WBSF don’t make a charge. The two protests I know of at the World Championships were “optimistic” as I understood it.

Brian
 
Depends on the size of the event.

I think a quote in one of the answers above is correct "most small clubs don't have this problem" and don't need this, we have extensively tested the South African version for the WRABF and will be using it at the Wrbaf World Champs next year. When you get to an event with over 150 shooters per match the electronic does help, reason being fatigue does set in especially after 7 days of plugging and also results come out too late when you reach these sort of numbers.

As i said we have tested it side by side with plugging and are more than happy with the results in Air and Rimfire.

Further to this who knows even this me be extinct in the future as i note any new or updated large ranges down here get the new Electronic Target Laser not Rubber that has the Wrabf sizes on it, expensive but accurate and instant scoring all in one package, no paper no scorers no issues.
 
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Has anybody tried shooting and scoring a laminated paper target? There is one of those Lakeshore Learning places around here that laminates stuff pretty cheap. Was thinking of taking some targets down there and then shooting them to test the tear-out vs regular paper.

At the Field Target worlds in Italy I think it was a bit rainy and the sight-in range had laminated targets. That was due to the inclement weather but I also wonder if it might help with the holes and scoring. Or it might be worse...who knows. But has anybody tried this?
 
With the WRABF using electronic scoring at their world championships in 2015, it will interesting to see if shooters there generate the same controversy as we have seen here.

It will also be interesting if some shooters insist that any protest process use plugs, rather than what the system's manufacturer has built in to settle any errors.

Certainly, the targets will be standardized but what quality paper will be used and will the rings actually be round and the lines of consistent width?

Will make for some interesting discussions after this event. It's on my calendar.
 
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Mr George

Delete it from your calender, there will be no issue, as per the Wrabf rules 1 plug and then hawke eye is allowed in any protest, that does not change electronic scoring or not.
 
Bill,

Thanks for your comments, as always. If you don't mind, will leave it on my calendar, time will tell how this plays out.

Took the liberty of checking the current WRABF rules.

"E.10 Target re-score Procedure:
The Official Scorer will re-score the disputed target in the presence of the second Official and the
Team Leader of the Competitor concerned using the same equipment as originally used."

Doesn't sound like "plug and then hawke eye" are the SAME equipment as originally used, if electronic scoring is to be used.
 
That is not the intention as i understand it, have a look under C8 at 8c and 8i & in the meantime i will also seek clarification to see if what i have stated is what is meant to be in place and if it needs re wording in a better fashion/
 
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Bill,

So many rules, so little time. As president of the WRABF, no one can expect you to know all the rules.

I took your suggestion.

8c Scoring Plugs
All shots which cannot be scored by visual scoring will be checked using a certified .22 plug for rimfire
and air rifle-plug and marked on the target with a “P” to so indicate. A Target cannot be re-plugged as part of score query; see C5

8i Electronic Scoring:
Where electronic scoring is utilised, the match director will ensure the rules above will be used where
appropriate or necessary, not with standing any rights for protest, re-scoring manually, etc.

Both of the above violate E.10, scoring plugs are NOT the same equipment as originally used and "re-scoring manually" means using a plug.

Good to know you guys have such a tight handle on all this electronic stuff.
 
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I agree they contradict each other and as I believe not what is intended, I believe a plug and or hake eye are allowed in a protest, i have asked the question and will be back to you on it, as I thought we had cleared this type of thing up.

Talk tomorrow I am off for my beauty sleep.
 
Bill,

Goodness, we agree on something, there are bells ringing somewhere.

Get your beauty sleep, can't wait for the explanation to come.
 
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With the WRABF using electronic scoring at their world championships in 2015, it will interesting to see if shooters there generate the same controversy as we have seen here.

Steve, I seriously doubt any controversy. We have been using True Score for +/- 3 years now, and can't remember any protest. All competition here in SA use True Score - from League Shoots to Provincial and National Championship. We have average 15-20 entries at League Shoots, 30-40 at Provincial Championships and between 60-90 at National Championships - never had any problems or even heard a negative comment. Believe me, prior to True Score introduction it was very different - best thing that could have happened to our sport!

Paul
 
Ammion......have you guys found that the True Score system is backed up by manual scoring methods and vice versa?

I mean, if you run a target through True Score......will you obtain the same score if the target was properly plugged by a competent individual?

The Orion system makers and supporters believe that their system should not be expected to generate the same scores as a properly plugged target......because it's two different systems.

It seems to me that each system should closely mirror the other.......or the conclusion must be that one or both system are faulty.

Mike
 
Paul,

That is wonderful news. South Africa has certainly lead the way on this vital issue.

Can you provide any particulars on True Score? Who is the developer? Can anyone purchase a copy? An instruction manual? What type of paper? I know, too many questions, sorry. I am a supporter of electronic scoring and would love to better understand the inner workings. This may better help all of us around the world.

Do you have a personal opinion on why it has been so well received in your country and has established a trust with the shooters?
 
True Score system

looking up in Google shows you are using a True Score system by James Mitchell
is he available for contact and information on his system ?

Dick
 
James Mitchell developed the program. I think it was well received because it mirror the manual system without the obvious errors. I'll ask Gert van Wyk (Sighter) to answer the questions - he did a True Score presentation in the Czech Republic last year.

Paul
 
Paul,

That is wonderful news. South Africa has certainly lead the way on this vital issue.

Can you provide any particulars on True Score? Who is the developer? Can anyone purchase a copy? An instruction manual? What type of paper? I know, too many questions, sorry. I am a supporter of electronic scoring and would love to better understand the inner workings. This may better help all of us around the world.

Do you have a personal opinion on why it has been so well received in your country and has established a trust with the shooters?

Steve,
When we introduced electronic scoring it was not without resistance. People will always differ from each other as is our right I suppose. When the like of Paul and I joined Benchrest we were surprised to see the extent to which some shooters were prepared to go to argue for a point up on the score. Never down, always up. Some our early experiences 4 years ago when we joined were most unpleasant to witness. We came to shoot and not to win arguments. So two things happened:

James Mitchell from our club, equally unimpressed with these arguments, decided to write a scoring program. After some testing and changes to the program we were able to introduce it at provincial and club level. Sure there were some shooters who believed that the human eye and the plug are better but after a couple of competitions they accepted the system. Since then we have scored our last two Nationals and both were without any arguments.


The second thing that we got right was to stick to the rules. If you want to challenge a score than stop complaining to everybody and lodge an official complaint. In the case of electronic scoring we will take the target in question and plug every hole. You then live by that result whether it is more or less. To date we have had one such challenge and the plug scored two point less.

I have been following this hot potato since the Nationals in Phoenix. My targets were also scored with Orion. I would choose it as is any-day over manual scoring. In Plzen in 2013 it sometimes took 3 day to get the results because of human errors that are not consistent.

Imagine there was ever only one method to determine the position of the hole on the target. To what can it then be compared? Nothing!!! But this is not the case so now we have several methods of scoring and as Garrett stated "Any system can only be validated by the accuracy seen within each system"

All these systems use physically different methods to determine where the hole is located with respect to the closest higher score line on the print. So it would be physically impossible that they all give the same score. What about the human error even if it only pertain to the simple arithmetic errors that sometimes creep in?

Go with Orion and give it good soak test. In the case of True Score we were very fortunate that Bill Collaros and his team were prepared to soak test it at their Nationals in February. Below are the results/statistics/comments of their efforts. I am under the impression that they are doing a second National Championships later this year with the same methods of test.

One last comment. Placing a target straight onto a cardboard backer is not good. These boards types are not solid and will have an effect on the hole that is made by the pellet. If the target is not totally flat onto the backer the hole will also be different. Scores will be effected. Sorry, that were two comments.


Gert

As per Brett Wilson's report on TrueScore:

The Air-rifle TrueScore system is very good, it is a little slower than the Rimfire due to the way the program is set up to look for diagrams with two shots and 17cal holes. A large number of 22cal holes the program questions if there are 2 shots. It is not a problem and only a little slower. Overall the system is many times faster then the scores having to plug every hole and in my opinion while not perfect it is more accurate.
Of the 1800 shots scored
89 shots (4.94%) were scored different between the 2 systems.
50 of those 89 (2.78%) I have determined to be Too Close, Either system could be correct
34 of those 89 (1.89%) I have determined TrueScore to be correct / Manual Score incorrect.
5 of those 89 (0.23%) I have determined Scorer to be correct and TrueScore incorrect. In all cases TrueScore is wrong the hole in not round for some reason, affecting TrueScores ability to find the centre of the hole.
Note: In the shots that I have called Too Close there is a slight bias towards harder scoring (Lower Score) of about 80% to 20%.
I have included a power point presentation showing every shot that was scored different between the two systems and what the difference was. I have also identified what my thoughts to which system was correct if it was too close, “Too Close” “TrueScore” or a comment on the Hole if TureScore was incorrect.

After I finished the Air-rifle I followed the same procedure for the Rimfire Sporter class.
The Results were
Of the 2050 shots scored
107 shots (5.22%) were scored different between the 2 systems.
52 of those 107 (2.54%) I have determined to be Too Close, Either system could be correct
48 of those 107 (2.34%) I have determined TrueScore to be correct / Manual Score incorrect.
7 of those 107 (0.34%) I have determined Scorer to be correct and TrueScore incorrect. In all cases TrueScore is wrong the hole in not round for some reason, affecting TrueScore’s ability to find the centre of the hole.
Note: In the shots that I have called Too Close there is a slight bias towards harder scoring (Lower Score) of about 65% to 35%.
I have included a power point presentation showing every shot that was scored different between the two systems and what the difference was. I have also identified what my thoughts to which system was correct if it was too close, “Too Close” “TrueScore” or a comment on the hole if TureScore was incorrect.
In Rimfire, overall TrueScore is much faster and the scores in my opinion while not perfect are more accurate then Manual Scoring.
 
Gert thanks for your comprehensive answers. You are correct also that we are using it at oiur Nationals in Feb with over 80 shooters per event

Mr George, i am yet to hear back but my team may be out enjoying the weekend in any case i can advise the follwoing;

As Match Director of World Champs i will be using rule 8i and allowing plugging etc if required under the protest.

As a Delegate I will be asking the WRBAF to fix the contradiction and discrepancy you have highlighted as it is a more a technical writing error rather than rule change and we are allowed to request that type of thing as members or via our committee.

And for now again I say goodbye as I am off to play with my new simple shotgun just trying to hit a simple moving clay target and have some fun.
 
Gert,

It was great meeting you in Arizona and thank you so much for jumping in here with your experiences. Much of the world has been aware of your electronic scoring system since 2011 but the details were always lacking. I hope you are able to fill in some of the blanks of what we don't know.

We presume the target is scanned and imported to the software resident on your computer. What does Brett mean with, "due to the way the program is set up to look for diagrams with two shots and 17cal holes."

What kind of paper are you printing targets with?

What are you using for backers and how do you ensure that the target is flat against the backer?

Also, in your protest process, is the full target plugged, not just the bull in question? The shooter is then committed to the plugged score even if it scores higher or lower than the electronic score? Bravo.
 
Bill,

"more a technical writing error rather than rule change and we are allowed to request that type of thing as members or via our committee." Can you provide where in the constitution this is allowed and what committee you are referring to?

The WRABF only puts on one event every 4 years. The WRABF has a couple under their belts at this point. With that level of experience and all the resources involved, one would hope that in the multitude of pages of rules now published, "a technical writing error" would not be the excuse provided for such a glaring error. In addition, I take no credit for highlighting this issue, you were the one that brought it up. Again, so many rules, so little time.

Should we all understand from your post that 8i will now supersede and overrule E.10, even though E.10 is a more recent addition to the rules?

Thank you for your continuing support of air rifle benchrest.
 
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