Douglas Barrels

Glen, since you are in Texas, you should try to get by Shilen sometime for a walk-through of how a barrel is made & checked. It is quite an education. When at the IBS Score Nationals at Canastata, NY a few years ago, some of us went down to Hart Rifle Barrels to have Jack Sutton take us through the process. They air gage most, if not all, of their blanks. It was a very informative & interesting trip.
 
I am not a benchrest shooter but I do have many quality barrels that have been chambered by well known smiths. With the average cost of a quality barrel running $300 and chambering costs running from $175 on up, I invested in a borescope about five years ago. When I get a new barrel blank, I clean it and examine the bore with the scope. I realize a good looking bore will not ensure a hummer barrel but a visual examination will tell you whether you got what you paid for. If you really want to know that you got what you paid for you have to perform your own quality control. If there is anything wrong, that is the time to send the barrel back. I must say that looking at Douglas barrels, I have three, versus Hart, Kreiger or any of the others is no indication of potential. The Douglas's all shoot very well, yet they are not lapped.
 
The Douglas's all shoot very well, yet they are not lapped.
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I can't understand the mindset that thinks that a lapped barrel is automatically better than one that is not lapped. Tim Gardner told me once that if you know how to make a barrel properly you don't have to lap it.

Question: What does the lapping process achieve?

Does it make a barrel uniform in bore diameter? An air gauge barrel is uniform to within a tenth the entire length. Does it make the bore smoother? The carbide button gives a 5-7 micron finish while a lap is usually around 10-12 micron. Again, this information is from Tim Gardner---it is not empirical.

I can promise you that if lapping a barrel would make it better then Stan Taylor and the others a Douglas would be lapping their barrels and charging the extra fee for it.
 
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Glenn,
When I went to the Shilen Swap Meet last month at Shilen, they had an air gauge machine there. The rifling guy told me how they air gauged barrels. I asked if he could show me(even though I'm not from Missouri) and he said no problem. I watched him air gauge a barrel and I was impressed. He ran the probe into the barrel and the results showed up on a vertical scale that was on the table. Kinda' like when they take your blood pressure and the results show up on the vertical scale. I believe the center of the scale was "0" and each graduation either direction(up or down) was a thousandth. A better way to explain it to you would be for you to show up at next years swap meet and I can point you to the guy and he can show you how it's done, pretty simple and pretty neat. That way when you show up we can visit ! :)
Best,
Dan Batko

"Where are we going and why am I in this basket?"
 
In my opinion (for whatever that is worth) I believe that any PREMIUM barrel should be lapped. The drilling/honing process leaves circular marks perpendicular to direction of bullet travel and these should be removed before the rifling process is done. A button will "iron" these "ridges" down, but will not remove them. Another benefit of lapping is to bring the bore diameter up to the desired size. I know that Krieger laps their barrels twice, and I don't think that they go to this trouble for just the exercise. I am now putting on my fire retartant suit. Good shooting....James
 
James -- from the "You just can't win" file: Douglas barrels, especially the "double button" barrels, are so smooth some shooters object. I knew one guy who said they should be lapped to rough them up a bit.
 
MColeman said:
I can't understand the mindset that thinks that a lapped barrel is automatically better than one that is not lapped. Tim Gardner told me once that if you know how to make a barrel properly you don't have to lap it.

Question: What does the lapping process achieve?

Does it make a barrel uniform in bore diameter? An air gauge barrel is uniform to within a tenth the entire length. Does it make the bore smoother? The carbide button gives a 5-7 micron finish while a lap is usually around 10-12 micron. Again, this information is from Tim Gardner---it is not empirical.

I can promise you that if lapping a barrel would make it better then Stan Taylor and the others a Douglas would be lapping their barrels and charging the extra fee for it.
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Mickey,
I don't think a lapped barrel shoots better and did not mean to imply that. I would not have Douglas barrels if I didn't think they were accurate. The ones I have shot and owned have been as accurate as any of the others.
 
chino69 said:
Mickey,
I don't think a lapped barrel shoots better and did not mean to imply that. I would not have Douglas barrels if I didn't think they were accurate. The ones I have shot and owned have been as accurate as any of the others.
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..and I didn't mean to imply that you were of that frame of mind. Your post just provided the platform for mine. Sorry for the confusion for I never read into your words and you were of that belief.

When Tim and Laura Gardner were shooting benchrest Laura had a barrel on her rail gun that Wilbur Harris would have killed to own. I've heard him moan about that barrel and how he coveted it many times.
 
MColeman said:
..and I didn't mean to imply that you were of that frame of mind. Your post just provided the platform for mine. Sorry for the confusion for I never read into your words and you were of that belief.

When Tim and Laura Gardner were shooting benchrest Laura had a barrel on her rail gun that Wilbur Harris would have killed to own. I've heard him moan about that barrel and how he coveted it many times.
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Thanks Micky, I didn't take it personal either way. I actually keep myself intersted by comparing things like Douglas barrels versus lapped barrels just to see if there is validity one way or the other. I do the same thing with barrels. I have Douglas, Hart, Kreiger, Bartlein, button vs. cut, etc. and they all shoot very well. I would be hard pressed to say one is any better or a method is any better. Now I don't shoot benchrest but I do compete in local groundhog matches against some very seasoned shooters. I strive for all the accuracy I can get out of my components.
 
The original Q asked about a specific brand of barrel and what "you guys thought of them-"-- I answered honesty and specifically as the Q asked--if that irritated some people--why I could not say--well--in a word TOUGH---The thing that stands out in my mind after this whole Douglas experience-- is the number of people who gave me positive feedback about their match barrels--more than 4-- and after I bought my disaster--again the original Q was about this brand-- the number of people who seemed to come out of the woodwork to tell me bad experiences with them--again more than 4---all this at the same club--and I know that some of the naysayers were silent when I was asking about them in the first place----again as I said before, I was not "down" on Douglas since I know I am not perfect and anyone can make a mistake--but when contacted--they were less than helpful--way less--and so I stand by what I said before--and now because I am not going to be bullied out of my opinion or shouted down the original poster observed that he did not see many in EQ lists in match results and I have to say that I am beginning to see why-------
 
amamnn said:
. . . because I am not going to be bullied out of my opinion or shouted down the original poster observed that he did not see many in EQ lists in match results and I have to say that I am beginning to see why-------
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I'm a bit puzzled. I went back and read the entire thread, and don't see any bullying or shouting, unless you count people somewhat disagreeing with you as bullying.

What am I missing?
 
Tim Gardner once told me...

that he could check the microfinish in the bore of his barrels and others. He said he consistently had a better finish than a lapped barrel

Tim isn't the sort to lie about something like that. I believe him.

Dick Wright
 
If I gave the impression in an above post that I don't think Douglas barrels are good, let me apologize. I have used Douglas barrels on hunting rifles with great results, but I still think that lapped barrels are more suited to competition barrels than are those not lapped. I have owned match Shilen barrels that were not lapped and Select match barrels that were. The lapped barrels have almost always out performed the unlapped barrels. The select match may have been selected for traits other than lapping, but if I spent $250 to $350 for a premium barrel, you can bet that I am going to insist that it is lapped. If a person has had good luck with unlapped barrels, then he/she should stay with them. I know that the double buttoned Douglas barrels were really hot several years ago, but I have not tried one of them. Good shooting...James
 
Well I guess Charles set us straight!

I am going to try one already chambered in 30BR by Mickey. I am very curious to see how it is going to shoot.
 
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