Does Size Really Matter?

M

Muleskinner

Guest
Well;

The new Savage Model 12 Benchrest rifle is here, and i will soon start learning how to hand load for the 6mm Norma BR. I went to watch a match this past weekend and saw some if not all of the guys doing a full length resize on thier cases. I have always heard that once you fire form the brass all you needed to do was resize the shoulder and not full length resize. Has something changed on this matter or was i wrong all along? I have ordered some hand load dies and i am pretty sure i ordered a shoulder resize die only.

Should i be full length resizing after each shot with a case?, and if so, what case lube are you guys using at the bench?

Thanks

Muleskinner
 
Yes size does matter

Full Length Resizing dies allow you to set the die so that yout bolt closes nicely on the cartridge, yet the cartridge is not tight or loose in the chamber, just right.

What you probably ordered were neck sizing dies. By just neck sizing, your cartridges will get tighter and tighter in the chamber, until bolt close is tough and upsetting the rifle in the bags.
 
pbike said:
Full Length Resizing dies allow you to set the die so that yout bolt closes nicely on the cartridge, yet the cartridge is not tight or loose in the chamber, just right.

What you probably ordered were neck sizing dies. By just neck sizing, your cartridges will get tighter and tighter in the chamber, until bolt close is tough and upsetting the rifle in the bags.
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URGH!,

Looks like i am going to have to send the size die back and get a full length resizer then. The guy at Sinclair tried to talk me into getting a full length resize die, guess i should have listened to him more. This benchrest loading is new to me, so mistakes are going to happen i suppose. Just hope the mistakes i make are not too expensive.

Muleskinner
 
Muleskinner

if you ordered Redding dies what you want is the Type S Full Bushing die. This set allows you to control neck tension with bushings yet set the shoulder bump as well. Get that set with a competition seater and you are set. If you have an arbor press just get the sizing die and get a Wilson seater for it.

The Redding work well but ideally not as well as a Harrell Full length die. The Harrel dies allow control of neck tension with bushings and at the same time SQUEEZE the ENTIRE case a couple of thou.

So many people misunderstand the concept of neck sizing. I did until I started shooting a 6BR and 6PPC then it all started to make sense.

Redding part number is 36317. It has the die and the Competition seater.

Calvin
 
Muleskinner

Yours is a common miss-conception. Often shooters will come over to where we are loading at our local range, see what we are doing, and marvel that we do indeed full length size, every time. Afterall, they just read in "Shootin' Ammo" that Rifles are more accurate when you neck size only.

If this is so, why do the shooters who shoot the most accurate Rifles on the Planet full length size.?? The reason is our Rifles are built to exacting standards. When shooting in Competition, being able to get the case in and out with little disturbance is a very important component in the Combinations overall agging capability.

Since we have found that there is no advantage in NOT full length sizing, we do it as a matter of course so as to minimize the problems that can crop up with cases that refuse to cooperate.

Also, many Benchrest Shooters shoot at pressures that are pretty high. That is where the Ultimate Accuracy is to be found with many Bullet-Barrel-Powder Combos. This makes fulllength sizing a neccessity........jackie
 
Another thing to consider is that there is a huge difference between FL dies. The ones that are used by Benchrest competitors are such a close match to the chamber and brass that the case is sized only enough to give the correct neck tension, and slight clearance in the chamber, and there is no expander ball. This results in the straightest brass possible. This situation is totally different than what you have with a factory chamber and typical FL dies. You can use the cheapest of everything to reload with, with the best of dies, and produce much better ammunition than with the best of everything and typical dies. The reason for buying a Harrell die is that he has several sizes for each caliber (primarily PPC and BR) on the shelf. You send him a couple of fired cases (stout load) and he selects the die that is the best fit for your chamber. Anything else is order and hope.
 
Boyd Allen said:
Another thing to consider is that there is a huge difference between FL dies. The ones that are used by Benchrest competitors are such a close match to the chamber and brass that the case is sized only enough to give the correct neck tension, and slight clearance in the chamber, and there is no expander ball. This results in the straightest brass possible. This situation is totally different than what you have with a factory chamber and typical FL dies. You can use the cheapest of everything to reload with, with the best of dies, and produce much better ammunition than with the best of everything and typical dies. The reason for buying a Harrell die is that he has several sizes for each caliber (primarily PPC and BR) on the shelf. You send him a couple of fired cases (stout load) and he selects the die that is the best fit for your chamber. Anything else is order and hope.
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Well everything i ordered showed up at the door just a few minutes ag, a Wilson neck die (WBRN) and a .269 bushing. My seat die wasnt in the box and it seems as though it is back ordered. It looks like it may be some time before i can even try out my new rifle so it may be best for me to send all the dies back and just wait for the new ones to come off of back order.

Would be nice if i could have some time to shoot a little before out next match is up in about 3 weeks i guess but i suppose its not to be. The guy at Sinclair said the .269 bushing is the one i need but i dont know for sure. This is a factory rifle and has not been changed.

Muleskinner
 
Muleskinner, do you have an arbor press? Also I don't think the .269 bush is going to work. IIRC the loaded cartridge should have a .269 neck so the sized case should have a .266 to .267 neck. I am pretty sure I had my Forster sizing die honed to .266 back when I had a 6br.

What part of GA are you in ?

Ray
 
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crb said:
Muleskinner, do you have an arbor press? Also I don't think the .269 bush is going to work. IIRC the loaded cartridge should have a .269 neck so the sized case should have a .266 to .267 neck. I am pretty sure I had my Forster sizing die honed to .266 back when I had a 6br.

What part of GA are you in ?

Ray
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I am in Woodstock, Ga, just a little north of Atlanta. I just got a new arbor press for Sinclair today but have never used it and it looks like it will be a month or so before i can fire my new rifle. It seems that Sinclair is back ordered on just about everything that is 6mm BR. There are no full length size dies of any brand, and no bullet seaters of any brand, which means i cannot load anything for atleast a month maybe more.

I just finished loading my .269 bushing, the neck die, and the micrometer top in a box and sending it back to Sinclair tomorrow. Maybe a month from now they will have something which will help me get to the range with my new rifle. I am not sure about these bushing sizes, all he asked me was if i was going to turn the necks and i said "no", so he said the .269 would work but i dont know. I am new to all of this so its all a learning experiance for me.

This is really strange to me, I have never purchased any rifle before which i could not fire that day if i wanted to. I understand how someone could run out of something, but for everyone to be sold out?, wow.

Muleskinner
 
This is the die set I used when I had a 6BR. I eventually sent the sizer back to Forster and had it honed to .266. I REALLY like the Ultra Micrometer seater die that comes in this set. NOTE !!! The pic on the Midway sight is wrong and shows the std Forster seater die. The set in the link actually comes with the Micrometer seater. You can see a pic of the Micrometer seater if you browse the Forster die page on the Midway site or look in their catalog.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=814541

Order this tomorrow morning and you should have it by Friday. You will also need a shellholder. I use Redding.

Loading at the range is highly over rated, especially for BR newbies. IMO you could send the Sinclair arbor press back too. Just use the normal RCBS, Redding, or whatever 7/8" reloading press you already have.


PM sent.

Ray
 
Mule

These guys mean well but they are talking way over your head. I'm assuming your 6 BR is a factory cartridge. My suggestion is buy a box of factory ammo. Use the ammo to sight your scope in and get used to shooting the gun. Later buy 80 more brass to complete your 100. If you want to load buy a caliper. Cheap is not always good in the loading game but go to to Harbor freight or Loh's and buy one for $15. You can upgrade on a caliper later if you want. Take a couple fired cases and measure the neck diameter. A fired brass will spring back some after it cools. If say the neck measures .269 buy a .267 bushing. Measure the unfired ammo neck too to get an idea how much the neck expands after firing.

Why are you going with a straightline seater for a factory gun? A good set of RCBS dies will give you all the FL sizing you need and seat your bullets with a lot less trouble. With a factory chamber I doubt you can make any better ammo than a RCBS die set will do for a lot less money inolved. If you are starting from scratch on loading equipment why not get a RCBS Rockchucker reloading kit. Check Midway for price. You should ask your questions on Factory/Hybrid Forum those guys are at your level.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
Stephen Perry said:
These guys mean well but they are talking way over your head. I'm assuming your 6 BR is a factory cartridge. My suggestion is buy a box of factory ammo. Use the ammo to sight your scope in and get used to shooting the gun. Later buy 80 more brass to complete your 100. If you want to load buy a caliper. Cheap is not always good in the loading game but go to to Harbor freight or Loh's and buy one for $15. You can upgrade on a caliper later if you want. Take a couple fired cases and measure the neck diameter. A fired brass will spring back some after it cools. If say the neck measures .269 buy a .267 bushing. Measure the unfired ammo neck too to get an idea how much the neck expands after firing.

Why are you going with a straightline seater for a factory gun? A good set of RCBS dies will give you all the FL sizing you need and seat your bullets with a lot less trouble. With a factory chamber I doubt you can make any better ammo than a RCBS die set will do for a lot less money inolved. If you are starting from scratch on loading equipment why not get a RCBS Rockchucker reloading kit. Check Midway for price. You should ask your questions on Factory/Hybrid Forum those guys are at your level.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
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Thanks Stephen;

I appreciate your comments, though i have already purchased a set of Forster dies and some reloading stuff for my RCBS press now. I got some 107g match kings and started looking for my seat depth in the case. I have one of those depth things that has a dummy case and a flex rod that you push the bullet into the rifling to find the correct seat depth that way, however shows the bullet touching the rifling with the bullet seated on the boat tail area, which i know cant be done.

If i seat the bullet deep enough into the case where it has a good grip on the neck i am a good 100/1000ths away from the rifling. Am i doing something wrong here? I have checked this several time and get the same result.

Thanks

Muleskinner
 
Wait, Hold The Press!

Muleskinner said:
Thanks Stephen;

I appreciate your comments, though i have already purchased a set of Forster dies and some reloading stuff for my RCBS press now. I got some 107g match kings and started looking for my seat depth in the case. I have one of those depth things that has a dummy case and a flex rod that you push the bullet into the rifling to find the correct seat depth that way, however shows the bullet touching the rifling with the bullet seated on the boat tail area, which i know cant be done.

If i seat the bullet deep enough into the case where it has a good grip on the neck i am a good 100/1000ths away from the rifling. Am i doing something wrong here? I have checked this several time and get the same result.

Thanks

Muleskinner
Click to expand...

I believe i have found my problem. The dummy round that is used with this system measures .271 at the neck, while the lapua brass measures .267 at the neck. I tried to chamber the dummy round with the bolt and it is too tight to go all the way in the chamber, while the unsized Lapua case will. Looks like i will have to turn the neck on this dummy round if i want it to work or find some other way to get my OAL, any suggestions?

Thanks

Muleskinner
 
Mule

Yeah I do have some suggestions. First a chamber cast would be nice but I would let a smith do that. Second buy some pin gauges a .269, .270, and a .271 might work. Slide the pin gauges in the neck the one that slides in all the way with minimum resistance will be your chamber neck diameter. Now reloading ain't rocket science but when your loadng for tight neck you need to know to the barrel neck diameter. The BR crowd is used to saying they have a .262 neck barrel or a 6 PPC that being the most common size reamer. I go farther I want to know the 4th decimal. So I use the pin gauges on my barrels to know if I have a .2624 or a .2628 chamber neck. This makes a difference to me if I am trying to set up a .2615 bullet seated neck. the .2624might be considered a tight neck where the .2628 might be considered a fitted neck. Changing bullets, neck sizing , and brass flow forward from repeated shooting the same cases can change all yourstarting dimensions. That's what they make new cases for.

Mule in your cases with a factory barrel made to SAAMI specs you probably have a .271 neck. Your dummy round with a .271 neck going part way is telling so. Loaded rounds should be in the .267 bullet seated neck range. This allows for good round chambering and and extraction. Your not preparing a BR barrel so disregard the 4th decimal and don't load a tight neck case. Like I said earlier buy a factory box of loaded ammo if there is such and shoot 3 cases, measure the fired brass, as the brass cools after firing in could change the neck dimension but not enough to affect your loading. Take the bullet you decide to load with turn it upside and slide into your neck if it goes in with no resistance your good to size your case necks. If you can chamber your loaded rounds and fired brass without man handling your bolt you will be able to get away with the Forrester dies since my Forrester dies size the case bases small anyway.

But now you have new Forrester dies with a fixed neck diameter machined into the dies. All my speel about Wilson neck sizing dies can be saved for when you might move up to a BR chamber. Your are no longer loading fitted case necks which is probably best for you. A factory PPC chamber is a whole different animal than the fitted neck PPC bench gun. You can neck turn if you want but when I do it for a factory barrel I set up for a skim cut removing just enough brass to end up with a round concentric case neck. You turn off too much and your fixed neck sizing die will not size enough to hold the seated bullet, in other words after seating the bullet it will be loose in your case, bad ju ju.

Probably confused you. Read the Forrester instructions with your die set and if you have a reloading manual read what the manual says about reloading. About all I got mule. You'll get through the loading process going like we all do eventually.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
 
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Muleskinner ...

Muleskinner said:
There are no full length size dies of any brand, and no bullet seaters of any brand, which means i cannot load anything for at least a month maybe more. Muleskinner
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Call these guys, they always seem to have items in stock: http://www.gunstop.com/supplies.asp?cat_id=5&mfr_id=60.

I ordered a Wilson Seating Die from them on a Tuesday afternoon awhile back and on Wednesday afternoon it was sitting on my doorstep [they're in Minnesota and I'm in TX]. I couldn't believe it. There is a Post Office right next to their business and they use flat rate Priority Mail boxes when they can to save you on shipping. I always ask for USPS service when available.

Give'm a call. It's worth a try. Art :)

P.S. It looks like they have the Wilson 6mm Rem BR Rem standard seating die in stock for 42.95, item # WBS6BR.
 
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