Do suplus Mausers need heat treatment?
- Thread starter Clark
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mike in co
Guest
i've been reading his book also( on the boards reccomendation). reading between the lines..i think it depends on just how much material you remove in anyone area/anyone step.
it maybe a lawyer statement, but like you i'd like to hear from others.
thanks
mike in co
it maybe a lawyer statement, but like you i'd like to hear from others.
thanks
mike in co
Butch Lambert
Active member
Mausers were not heat treated. They were case hardened. Check this link out and you will learn more than you want to know:http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9411043/m/356108658
Butch
Butch
P
PPP MMM
Guest
A common practice, but just a guess-work
A carburizing/case hardening is a process where more of a carbon is introduced to the surface at temperatures between 875*-925*C.
The actual depth of the carbon effected layer can range from 0.25-2.5MM (0.01"-0.1") and it's strictly governed by the temperature, the carburizing medium (gas/liquid/solid), the time (1-20 hours) and the type of steel and its chemical alloying composition.
After the carburizing is completed the quench and tempering is to follow.
The quench can be directly from the carburizing temperature, or cooled down to the room temperature, then reheated to 800*-900*C and quenched, or even reheated a second time to 760*-830*C and quenched. These temperatures do vary from steel to steel and a double heat treatment is not always needed.
After the final quench an immediate tempering must follow. The tempering temperature is usually between 170*-235*C depending strictly on the particular application such as surface hardness/core strength/toughness . A much higher tempering temperatures can be used in special application regarding a special purpose medium-high carbon alloyed steels with high hardenability and high core strength.
The common believe that a carburized/case hardened steel has always a soft and ductile impact resisting core is not 100% correct and it only applies to a larger sizes and/or to the steels where a low carbon and low % of alloying elements are present. A medium-high carbon alloyed steel can still be carburized and still have a fully hardened core of 50HRC that is very strong but relatively brittle.
The hardness on Mauser 98 drops off very quickly with dept, that indicates it has virtually no alloying elements whatsoever and no heat treatment could make the part any stronger. As I read, I believe that's a common practice amongst US smiths to reheat treat Mausers 98.
Personally, just for the fact, that the type of the particular steel is unknown I wouldn't attempt to reheat treat the action as any such doing would be just a pure guess-work.
Shoot better
Peter
A carburizing/case hardening is a process where more of a carbon is introduced to the surface at temperatures between 875*-925*C.
The actual depth of the carbon effected layer can range from 0.25-2.5MM (0.01"-0.1") and it's strictly governed by the temperature, the carburizing medium (gas/liquid/solid), the time (1-20 hours) and the type of steel and its chemical alloying composition.
After the carburizing is completed the quench and tempering is to follow.
The quench can be directly from the carburizing temperature, or cooled down to the room temperature, then reheated to 800*-900*C and quenched, or even reheated a second time to 760*-830*C and quenched. These temperatures do vary from steel to steel and a double heat treatment is not always needed.
After the final quench an immediate tempering must follow. The tempering temperature is usually between 170*-235*C depending strictly on the particular application such as surface hardness/core strength/toughness . A much higher tempering temperatures can be used in special application regarding a special purpose medium-high carbon alloyed steels with high hardenability and high core strength.
The common believe that a carburized/case hardened steel has always a soft and ductile impact resisting core is not 100% correct and it only applies to a larger sizes and/or to the steels where a low carbon and low % of alloying elements are present. A medium-high carbon alloyed steel can still be carburized and still have a fully hardened core of 50HRC that is very strong but relatively brittle.
The hardness on Mauser 98 drops off very quickly with dept, that indicates it has virtually no alloying elements whatsoever and no heat treatment could make the part any stronger. As I read, I believe that's a common practice amongst US smiths to reheat treat Mausers 98.
Personally, just for the fact, that the type of the particular steel is unknown I wouldn't attempt to reheat treat the action as any such doing would be just a pure guess-work.
Shoot better
Peter
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axlenut
Guest
P.O. Ackley had a chapter on Mauser action heat treating in his books. Taking Ackley's recommendation, I sent my first Siamese Mauser off to Industrial Heat Treating in Utah, where it was tested and passed. Ackley stated that the interior of the action was hardened by a separate process, so that Rockwell testing the bottom of the action ring wouldn't give a true picture of the locking recess hardness. Still, if the bottom of the ring is hard enough, it is unlikely the interior is soft. All of my subsequent Siamese and Mark X actions passed Rockwell testing and have shot without problems for thousands of rounds. I believe the Siamese actions were made at the Tokyo Arsenal, where the Japanese perfected the art of differential hardening. Remember, it was the Japanese Arisaka action that Ackley couldn't blow up when he tried. All the other actions I had cobbled together from the P-17 Enfield to the Swede Mausers were all hard enough for use with standard cartridges and normal loads. Late war production may be the exception. Any action that would require re-heat treating would find its way to my scrap pile. The only Mauser action I ever had fail was an Eddystone '03 Springfield that split on barrel removal. If in doubt, find a Zastava Serbian action as used on the Remington 978, they are as tough and hard as anything.
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mike thomas
Guest
Huh?
Eddystone made Enfields, not '03 Springfields.
Eddystone made Enfields, not '03 Springfields.
jackie schmidt
New member
Peter Makes A Good Point
Has anybody, including Mr Ackley of past, ever performed a chemical analysis of the actual steel that Germany used in the manufacture of Mauser Actions.
You can case harden, or carburize, any steel, including 1018, but it lacks the alloy content to respond to a true "heat treat", as in increasing, (improving), the physical properties.
Performing a "heat treat" on any steel without knowing the true chemical content is simply guess work, and borderline iresponsible. Sure, it might show a harder Rockwell C number, but that doesn't mean you made it stronger........jackie
Has anybody, including Mr Ackley of past, ever performed a chemical analysis of the actual steel that Germany used in the manufacture of Mauser Actions.
You can case harden, or carburize, any steel, including 1018, but it lacks the alloy content to respond to a true "heat treat", as in increasing, (improving), the physical properties.
Performing a "heat treat" on any steel without knowing the true chemical content is simply guess work, and borderline iresponsible. Sure, it might show a harder Rockwell C number, but that doesn't mean you made it stronger........jackie
Bill Leeper
New member
This is another reason I generally don't believe in re-heat treating. To properly re-treat most mausers-after machining had removed much of the case or heat had annealed it- the receiver would have to be re-carburized then re-hardened and drawn.
When a piece of low carbon steel is carburized, it becomes a piece of low carbon steel with a high carbon skin of more or less depth depending on the soaking time and medium. I don't know that most heat treaters are even capable of the selective hardening done on many mausers.
Color case hardening is performed on many mausers because it can be. They are a low carbon or mild steel which can tolerate the color case hardening process. Alloy receivers (like a chrome moly) won't tolerate the process and will crack.
Many custom 'smiths will anneal Mausers for machining or engraving then re-harden. In these cases, re-hardening is probably better than leaving them soft. Regards, Bill.
When a piece of low carbon steel is carburized, it becomes a piece of low carbon steel with a high carbon skin of more or less depth depending on the soaking time and medium. I don't know that most heat treaters are even capable of the selective hardening done on many mausers.
Color case hardening is performed on many mausers because it can be. They are a low carbon or mild steel which can tolerate the color case hardening process. Alloy receivers (like a chrome moly) won't tolerate the process and will crack.
Many custom 'smiths will anneal Mausers for machining or engraving then re-harden. In these cases, re-hardening is probably better than leaving them soft. Regards, Bill.
Butch Lambert
Active member
I have a Mexican mauser about finished at this time. It was annealed before welding and machining and recase hardened after the work was done. Check my heat treaters credentials: http://www.pacmet.com/. They are used by a lot of the custom gunmakers when it is needed on a Mauser. They know what they are doing.
Butch
Butch
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axlenut
Guest
Yes - I did it again. The '03 was a Rock Island that split, not an Eddystone. I think one thing and say or write another. I always confuse Nevada for Arizona, and Stockton for Fresno - so don't ask me for direction unless I'm paying attention. Glad you caught that!
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dirtyjim
Guest
unless the receiver has lug setback, you had to remove alot of material when lapping the lugs or its a turk, i wouldn't worry about having it recarburized. but remember the layer is only about .010 thick on mausers so even removing .001 from the locking lugs reduces the layer by approx 10%.
Unchopped up mausers are climbing in both collectability and price.
I cant help but imagine Mausers made from 43 to 45 were very scary. Slave labor, sabatoge, rushed production, enough to make me real leary of any in that year range- as mentioned, I'd send it off for testing and heat treating....or buy an MTR action.
I cant help but imagine Mausers made from 43 to 45 were very scary. Slave labor, sabatoge, rushed production, enough to make me real leary of any in that year range- as mentioned, I'd send it off for testing and heat treating....or buy an MTR action.