Do I need a new barrel ?

I'm coming into this thread late, and have to say I only skimmed it.

If you are getting 1-inch plus groups, something is terribly wrong. You may need a new barrel, but I'd say you need an experienced gunsmith first. Something -- or several things -- are seriously mucked up. The pattern of shot dispersement may offer clues.

I think you are beyond internet diagnosis. It could be something in the action, the barrel, the glue-in job, etc. etc. IMHO, the only thing not really worth fixing is the action. The reason is it is often just so hard to diagnose an action problem. It's worth one try to fix an action, after that, sell it to a varmint hunter & tell them why.

Yes I know the person you bought it from said it shot fine. Either you trust him/her, or you don't. Presumably it is not too late to make contact with them again & find out the components they used, if you want to go down that path.

* * *

To answer your original question though, it never hurts to have an extra -- or 10 extra -- barrels. Right now I have three in 6PPC, and none of them are competitive for a bigger match. So, I too "need" a new barrel.

To add a thought to your original question, if/when you get a barrel that is just damn good, don't waste it practicing or shooting club matches. Save it for when you're competing at the highest level you want to shoot at. It is a fallacy to believe that you can't learn from a less-that-great barrel. The barrel will respond in certain ways, to tune and wind. You can learn from that, even if that barrel won't group in the .100s.

You will also learn that getting a load in tune for barrel seems to solve more problems than you might believe. Of my three barrels, one will agg .200 to .250 -- and on the lower side of that when in tune. That's good enough for club matches. Yes, there are a couple Southeastern Region "Hall-of-Famers" who shoot at my club, but usually only one or two at a "club" match. That's the difference -- it isn't that there aren't any good shooters, but there are fewer than at a big match.

I'll allow that I'm known for saying that equipment wise, winning is all bullets and barrels. But that's when you're in the ballpark, and with 1-inch (plus) groups, your not.

Good luck to you.

Charles
 
matchman said:
Like I said, He was nice , spent "his" time with me to try to help.
Im offering a bag of worms for him to make money on. I can't blame them. Im not mad.
Maby he is dead on with the scope thing and was doing me a favor to try that first. Im not trying to bad mouth Kelby's at all.
Adam
Click to expand...

Matchman I hear you loud and clear. I find your description of your experience to be sane, accurate, non-judgemental and completely believable. I find the advice "get it over to Kelbly's so's they can diagnose it!!" to be completely unsound. (and I wouldn't want to be Kelbly's in this position :) )

As much as the 'experts' try to pick on it (and on you) I think you'll find this internet forum to be a very useful tool. My suggestion is that you DO buy and install your own barrel for starters......... as an aside you'll get to learn about sizing die/reamer fit and all sorts of good stuff ......... but meantime you're only out your own time since you own a reamer.
 
Rifle diagnosis procedure

Hello Adam,

I’m sorry that you feel as if you wasted your time coming to our shop for your rifle evaluation.
It would have been a great disservice to you (and unethical of me) to replace your barrel or visually examine it with a borescope to address the problems that you’re experiencing. Judging by the size and shape of the groups that you showed me, the latter would be like looking for spots on the sun.

In my opinion, you have a fundamental problem beyond a worn out barrel – and it could be one or a combination of the following. I will reiterate them:

1. Bad scope
2. Loose scope bases
3. Bad ignition
4. Loose barrel
5. Damaged barrel crown
6. Insufficient neck clearance
7. Poor bedding and/or glue in

You should check these issues in that approximate order – essentially the easiest to correct to the most difficult of the bedding/glue, since the last examination will result in destructive testing.

As far as No. 3 above, I think I neglected to mention to you that you should remove the firing pin assembly from the bolt and check the interior of the bolt body for debris (such as metal from pierced primer cups). The spring and firing pin travel on your particular rifle seemed to be sufficient for good ignition.

Your crown looked good, so we can probably eliminate #6.

I hope you don’t think I’m condescending by telling you to check some of these simple issues before addressing a problematic barrel, but in our experience these are the likely culprits that are causing your problems.

Even If your barrel were shot 20,000 times, it would not shoot as poorly as what it did on your sample targets. Bore scope examination was not necessary, since I look through new and used barrels every on-the-clock working day of the year. In fact, any gunsmith or even experienced BR shooter with good vision could look down the bore of the rifle with their naked eye and judge its approximate wear.

Unfortunately, we don’t have time at Kelbly’s to perform evaluations on rifles that we did not build. After talking to you, I feel you are obviously competent enough to check and correct these issues yourself. There would be no need for me to charge you money to correct something that can be done on your own. Trust me when I tell you that even an amateur BR shooter will self-check for most the above issues on their own. This is why I covered these steps with detailed explanations when you were at our shop. Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. The above list is the logical order of progression when checking a faulty rifle that shoots 1.5 to 2.0 MOA at best.

Please keep in mind that I don’t mean to suggest that you have inferior equipment. Your rifle is built with the standard and recognized BR quality barrel, action, stock, scope and mounts. I also don’t mean to dismiss it as being improperly built. One does not have to buy one of our rifles alone to be competitive. I only wanted to clarify that there are an inordinate number of “hobbyists” in the BR game who are buying individual components and assembling their own rifles. Many of these home built rifles are improperly assembled (notoriously bedding and/or glue, and loose barrels).

Adam - don’t be discouraged. The BR game is often made to be more complicated that what it really is.
Fortunately the BR shooting discipline has a number of participants with experience in our area that will help you get into the game with a minimum of fuss and no witchcraft.

Good luck, and feel free to contact us if you have any other questions.

Greg Walley
Kelbly’s Inc.
 
Thanks again Greg,
Its a frustrating thing. You are spot on for the details.
Its clearer to me why a bore scope was not used. I will post on what happens with a different scope and barrel re-torqu.
To bad you did not offer a trade in on a new rig I may have jumped on it.
Adam
 
matchman i agree with greg's diagnositics order or list and when you get to the ignition part of the inspection, check and clean the trigger and reset up the trigger.
i had a ppc that shot 3/4" groups no mater what you shot and even had another fellow take the rifle and did his thing with it and brought it back and yea it wont shoot.
gunsmith inspection showed NPF. well sometime latter someone figured out it was the trigger hanging up the fireing pin. go figure who would have thought of that,was a new jewel trigger set up by a good smith. just adding somethink to inspect when you get to the ignition.
 
Adam -- I disagree with Al (inwa) -- he & I often butt heads. Doesn't make either of us right, of course, but there you are.

I would say this, as much as they cost, a borescope should be on your "to-buy" list, esp. if you are going to chamber your own barrels. I use mine less these days, but it taught me a lot about cleaning -- a lot of old wives tales didn't stand up to actually seeing what the results of cleaning, and shooting, were. And they are very useful for chambering. If you get the ubiquitous Hawkeye, remember that the mirror cannot take either bore-cleaning solvents, or apparently, cutting oil. Always clean out the barrel before using a Hawkeye.

* * *

You should do the things Greg Walley mentioned. Along with ignition, I'd check the head clearance (headspace), if you haven't. That, of course, can affect ignition, esp. with new cases. I hope you got a go-gauge with your new reamer. Several layers of electrical tape on the back of the gauge can function like a "no-go" gauge.

An intermediate step to a new barrel would be to cut off the old barrel at the threads, and rechamber it from that point. Since the crown was checked, that would assure both ends were clean & of the right dimensions (assuming you got the go-gauge).

If/when you go the new barrel route: while cut-rifled barrels are all the rage these days, there is nothing wrong with a Shilen. They are both (1) a bit cheaper and (2) usually available "right now."

I'd reiterate that 1-inch groups are an order of magnitude outside "normal," and while it is possible that is all due to the barrel itself (not the fitting), I think it unlikely.

Best,

Charles
 
Thanks Charles,
I do have a go gauge and did check headspace (purchased tools to dis-assemble bolt to do this correctly). I have checked bases and rings 1st thing.
This week I plan to replace the scope and re-check barrel torqu. (I think I set it at 60ftlbs not 100).--Im hopeing for a scope issue, makes the most sense to me--
I' will even try more neck clearance .
I have no clue on checking the ignition system? But I have dis-assemble the bolt and cleaned it and removed any burrs.
As far as checking the glue in ? (I cannot pull it apart)
Thanks everyone for your help and input.
Adam
 
Matchman,

The first thing I'd do is re-torque the barrel to 90-100 ft/lbs. Make sure you have a proper action wrench, to avoid damage to the action. 50 ft/lbs is not enough in my opinion. In 2008 I had three barrels on two different rifles come loose on me. Once I re-torqued them to a much higher torque, they stopped coming loose (good! :D), and one of them went on to win a national championship. The difference in how well they shot before and after was startling. It's a simple thing that can make a large difference. Also make sure that the front scope base mounting screw is not bearing on the barrel tenon, if it has a through hole on your action. Just look in the hole and see if there is a dent on the threads. Good luck.
 
Barrel torque was ok (no movement at 100ft lbs)
Replaced scope--problem solved--
Loaded 25 rounds: 2 different bullets/different powders/varied loads/most no neck tension, bullets loose in neck.
100yds (5) 5 shot group total average .4 (best .250)
Thanks Everyone ....Greg of Kelby's thanks again (for not taking my money....yet) I eat my words, my 2hr drive was not wasted.
Adam
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top