Define "Crazy"

[Al Nyhus]

As a health care professional, I can relate to a lot of what's been said.

I have a great deal admiration for those in the mental health profession. It's also well known within the medical field that a good percentage are drawn to this speciality as a form of self treatment.

Connect the dots accordingly....... -Al

 

[mike in co]

there are lots of 'crazy" people...plain and simple.
some hoard cats..till it becomes a cost of living health issue for them..crazy,but they are not a hazard to the general population.

there are people that believe that gun control is a good thing, while not outwardly appearing dangerous, they are infact dangerous to the principles of this country. they may not be dangerous to themselves, but they are dangerous to those of us that believe in the constitution. crazy because they do not understand simple english.

there are people who's public behavior is "abnormal" and may be dangerous to others and themselves....people that talk to themselves, argue with passerby's, throw things. crazy..and need the public to provide care till resolved

substance abusers...drugs alcohol,.....these people are a danger to the pulic...crazy to behave in a way that is known to endanger others...driving, shooting, cooking all under substance abuse leads to deaths every year.....crazy in my opinion.

where and how to draw the line......my opinion , is when thier dehavior endangers themselves or others.....

so the crazy cat lady can have a gun...the substance abuser cannot.....

mike in co

I need a little help with my response to the inevitable question when I say something like "crazy folk can't have guns". The question then becomes (to hardliners like myself) - How is that not gun control? .... or....OK, while we're making a list of who can't have guns, who else goes on there?

My point is that we all have a bit of gun control in our thoughts and the Bill of Rights simply doesn't cover these things.

At what age does the 2nd amendment apply to individuals? Why can't crazy folk have guns?

 

[Powder Finger]

New to posting as this one caught my attention.
I have thought that the timing of the events of the past year or so that maybe
one of the contributing causes is the drugs given to school kids for the treatment
of ADD and similar diagnoses.
Since many posting here have ties to the field I would like to see that input.
Thanks, later.

 

[Phil Deese]

Wilbur,
You're right...when the libs are in control anyone that doesn't agree with them is crazy...just watch a few talk shows on Obama's networks and you will come to that realization!!

 

[Phil Deese]

Just to show you how insain these people are...they want to crucify Lance Armstong for taking drugs to better himself, which I do believe is wrong, but on the otherhand the want to legalize brain numbing drugs that cause all types of side effects and destroy brain cells...in addition most of the people that use them can't function in a normal way. As I have always said," If it doesn't make sense a liberal probably thought of it"!

 

[Chism G]

Crazy Folks

Why can't crazy folk have guns?

Good question. My question is..Should people who get "Crazy Checks" have Guns. They have been identified by Professional screeners as being Mentally disabled and put on the payrolls for tax payer assistance.

If you answer "yes" to item#F on ATF form 4473, "Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective or have you been committed to a Mental institution. You are prohibited from purchasing a firearm from a licensed seller.

If you lie to any of the questions,you can be charged with a felony offense. I've never heard of anybody being charged for lying,but it can happen. Of course I know that people don't lie on these forms. I bring this up because I suspect that a good many "Crazy Check" recipients own guns that they didn't purchase from a licensed seller. It has been reported that approximately 1/3 of the guns in the US are unregistered. When you consider those numbers,there's no way to prevent crazy folks,both identified and unidentified, from having guns. Just something to think about.

Glenn

 

[alinwa]

It has been reported that approximately 1/3 of the guns in the US are unregistered. [/IMG]


Glenn

WTF????

Buying a gun using a 4473 doesn't make it "registered!"

If 1/100% of the guns in US are "registered" I'll be surprised. This could only be those guns held by mil/police/etc and those in the few communistic municipalities that require it.

al

 

[Chism G]

Ok AL… I hear you screaming. I see my use of the word "unregistered" may have confused you. I never said that ATF form 4473 is used for gun registration. Sales to Crazy people are prohibited according to this form. Go back and read my post. I agree,The estimates I used in reference to the gun numbers in circulation is probably inaccurate. As you suggest The unregistered numbers are probably much higher. I haven't counted. The ATF form 4473 is a valuable tool to Law Enforcement for tracking guns purchased from licensed Dealers. The question was,"Why Can't Crazy people have guns?', the answer is .They can and do have guns. My experience is that there is no legal way to PREVENT crazy folks from having guns.


Glenn

 

[Wilbur]

My question, "Why can't crazy folk have guns?" was aimed at how I could firmly argue the 2nd and then say that crazy people can't have guns. There ain't nothin' about crazy people in there...or age limits...or anything that defines anything other than an American's right to keep and bear arms. Crazy folks are Americans too.

Breifly stated - there's a hole in my argument that I'm trying to fill and can't find a way.

 

[alinwa]

No hole Wilbur...... crazy folk CAN have guns. This whole misdirection re "The Mentally Ill" is nothing more than a digression from the real focus. The real focus being the ability to "head off problems at the pass." (Decoded, this means "control")

That is distinctly un-American!

Here in America we have a Constitution, and a Bill of Rights (10 Amendments to this Constitution) all of which have the force of law. Together they comprise a compact with the people which gives "we the people" certain "unalienable rights." One of these rights is that we are "innocent until proven guilty," another concerns "illegal search and seizure." Another says we don't have to confess to anything nor even answer the question! When the cop asks us "can I come in?" or "mind if I look around in your car?" we can just pleasantly say "no." Without the murky mess of "probable cause" and the bother of a search warrant NO ONE can come and dig for evidence to judge another person's fitness for societal intercourse without prior record.

Bottom line....... until we DO something "crazy" or anti-social to prove our lack of discretion we are free to do whatever we want to do within the constraints of the law.

This is GOOD!

This is AMERICAN!

I can and will protect myself from the zombies "thank-you-very-much!"

What's confusing us (purposely) is the rhetoric of a large group of people who stand to gain from more control. These folks are steadily convincing us that we need "protection" and "help" and that they're there for us.

And it's working!

Most people, even most shooters believe that it's GOOD that we can't have silencers on our guns!!

How incredibly stupid! Many countries that still allow hunting require them.

We've been brainwashed.

Nobody will ever invade America and "take it over." No one could possibly police us.

Nobody will ever "conquer us" from another country, nope not even "The Chinese."

Nope, we'll GIVE AWAY freedom for the illusion of security, we're doing it! Daily...

We need to remember this, THE PEOPLE VOTED HITLER IN!!! Actually a guy named Hindenburg was voted in with Adolph as Chancellor and then Hindie died and ba-da-bing, but anyways..... it was the will of the people that got that whole mess going. And "White Aryan Supremacy" began with a bunch of liberals just trying to make things better.......We in America are supposed to live by a different code, the code of capitalism, "survival of the fittest." More reward for more work. "Life ain't fair" and all that jazz. We were established as a society where children are free to grow into productive, even RICH adults. "Life, Liberty and THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS." That's it, no guarantees, you gotta' earn it to get "more."

We can't "help" people.

IMO an awful lot of "mental illness" is pure-dee butt laziness. They're playing that card so they don't have to work. Because they can. I know several wards of the state that when cornered will peep at you under their hatbrim and say sheepishly "but then I'd have to go to work!" And I know a bunch of others who play the mental illness card so they don't have to face up to their own screwups. It's the oldest way of getting away with murder.....

al

 

[Hunter]

Buying a gun using a 4473 doesn't make it "registered!"

I never said that ATF form 4773 is used for gun registration....The ATF form 4773 is a valuable tool to Law Enforcement for tracking guns purchased from licensed Dealers.

The form has a box for "Serial Number" -- is that the gun's number? If so, regardless of how you define "registered," it seems to me that the gun is "registered" to the buyer.

 

[Phil Deese]

Back when the Constitution was written there where no psychologist around, so called "crazy" people didn't last very long. In our society today rather than hook them up to a tree limb and let them hang there for a few days so other crazy people get a good idea of what is going to happen to them, we put them away for awhile until we have spent thousands of dollars on them, then we release them back to the streets to commit the same crime again. I don't know how we can get around this situation until we come up with "Electric Bleachers" to get rid of all of these idiots on the system and in prisons and rehab. Before it's over we will spend millions on that orange haired idiot that killed all those people in the theater ( And remember he was working on his PHD)...in the end we will keep him in prison or a hospital to suck-up our tax dollars for the rest of his life. It isn't that the Second Amendment and gun registration is bad, it's the politicans, lawyers and liberals that have made a joke out of crime for their on success!! Now the law abiding, tax paying, normal people have to suffer for the system that we have allowed them to set-up.

 

[Chism G]

The form has a box for "Serial Number" -- is that the gun's number? If so, regardless of how you define "registered," it seems to me that the gun is "registered" to the buyer.

The purpose of the form 4473 is to record the sale of the firearm and to provide information about the buyer. All licensed firearms dealers are required to keep these records on file for a period of time. The serial number is also recorded on the sales receipt. Doesn't make the gun registered. I live in Texas. Down here, there is no requirement to register guns. Your location may be different.



Glenn

 

[mike in co]

WHAT GLENN AND AL did not say...
the form has a section for the serial number...
BUT
the serial number is not given to the people doing the back ground check, just the TYPE of gun...shot gun pistol, long gun...NOTHING ELSE about the gun or guns.

the form stays with the dealer....no where else...till he closes shop..
then he is suppose to turn of the paper work to the batfe...
the last two guys that i know that retitred, piled all thier paper work in to a trailer, and on the way to the batfe..the brakes caught fire and burned the trailer to the ground.


if they have a gun in thier hands, they can backtrack to the last dealer that did a background check( thru the make and the distributor to the dealer)...but that is all .

no there is no gun registration...at the federal level in this country...your state may vary.

mike in co

 

[alinwa]

4473's are exclusive property of the dealer, completely private, and even with the stupid new "NICS" check where I call and talk to some no-mind lowest-common-denominator minion of "the FBI" I give them no more info than "pistol or long gun."

We as dealers are supposed to keep the 4473's on file for 7 yrs and then destroy them. NO PERMANENT RECORD!! I and all dealers I've worked with do just that.

On the subject of destroying records......I've been in business for 30yrs, I've learned that if you don't BURN old records every year you are stupid and may well have to lie about it if asked. The first time I was subpoena'd over a ten-yr-old construction project I fudged the truth, I said "I'll have to check with the office and get back to you."

I went home and BURNED those papers

I called back and said "I'm sorry, those records have been destroyed."

No subpoena.

BTW, I wasn't being called into court because I'd done something wrong. I as the concrete contractor was FAR from the problem, in fact "the problem" was of a political nature concerning zoning changes.

Life's too short. I spend as little time as possible in other people's terlet bowls.

But back to 4473's, the records are supposed to be destroyed but in any case they're property of the FFL holder and can only be searched by law enforcement under a search warrant and with probable cause. In other words, when those kids were shot, enforcement went around and asked gunshops to see who sold her the weapons. I doubt the shops even allowed the LEO's access, just searched their own files and brought out the individual papers. At least I would have done it that way.

Bottom line??? IF there's 4473 record of a firearms transaction made over 8yrs ago it's because the owner of the shop isn't doing due diligence.

ANY NORMAL FIREARM purchased more than 7-8 yrs ago is completely free of paperwork, legally, in most states. And if you're in a communistic state like MI or NY and have any of those idiotic "registered handguns" you make sure that when the law changes (like MI did recently) you SELL THOSE GUNS to someone....... like to your wife, for a dollar. NO PAPERWORK BTW!!! Don't even be tempted to write up a bill of sale! Shucks, TRADE them. Then trade them back to each other...... Or sell 'em to your wife for "trade labor" heh, heh, heh. LEGALLY transfer ownership so you can honestly say "I traded that gun off" or "I sold it" because as you've seen recently, even on this shooting forum there are many folks who like nothing better than having A Big Brother to Keep Them Safe.

These people are our enemy.

fear them.

Don't fear your government, fear your fellow man. Your government, when it's working properly (which, for the most part IT IS BTW!) reflects the wishes of your fellow man.

Our job is to convince our fellow man that we're sane.

individually and collectively.

al

 

[Wilbur]

Short version of alinwa's post

If the last election wasn't rigged we're in some serious trouble here....

 

[Jim Pickerill]

4473's are exclusive property of the dealer, completely private, and even with the stupid new "NICS" check where I call and talk to some no-mind lowest-common-denominator minion of "the FBI" I give them no more info than "pistol or long gun."

We as dealers are supposed to keep the 4473's on file for 7 yrs and then destroy them. NO PERMANENT RECORD!! I and all dealers I've worked with do just that.

On the subject of destroying records......I've been in business for 30yrs, I've learned that if you don't BURN old records every year you are stupid and may well have to lie about it if asked. The first time I was subpoena'd over a ten-yr-old construction project I fudged the truth, I said "I'll have to check with the office and get back to you."

I went home and BURNED those papers

I called back and said "I'm sorry, those records have been destroyed."

No subpoena.

BTW, I wasn't being called into court because I'd done something wrong. I as the concrete contractor was FAR from the problem, in fact "the problem" was of a political nature concerning zoning changes.

Life's too short. I spend as little time as possible in other people's terlet bowls.

But back to 4473's, the records are supposed to be destroyed but in any case they're property of the FFL holder and can only be searched by law enforcement under a search warrant and with probable cause. In other words, when those kids were shot, enforcement went around and asked gunshops to see who sold her the weapons. I doubt the shops even allowed the LEO's access, just searched their own files and brought out the individual papers. At least I would have done it that way.

Bottom line??? IF there's 4473 record of a firearms transaction made over 8yrs ago it's because the owner of the shop isn't doing due diligence.

ANY NORMAL FIREARM purchased more than 7-8 yrs ago is completely free of paperwork, legally, in most states. And if you're in a communistic state like MI or NY and have any of those idiotic "registered handguns" you make sure that when the law changes (like MI did recently) you SELL THOSE GUNS to someone....... like to your wife, for a dollar. NO PAPERWORK BTW!!! Don't even be tempted to write up a bill of sale! Shucks, TRADE them. Then trade them back to each other...... Or sell 'em to your wife for "trade labor" heh, heh, heh. LEGALLY transfer ownership so you can honestly say "I traded that gun off" or "I sold it" because as you've seen recently, even on this shooting forum there are many folks who like nothing better than having A Big Brother to Keep Them Safe.

These people are our enemy.

fear them.

Don't fear your government, fear your fellow man. Your government, when it's working properly (which, for the most part IT IS BTW!) reflects the wishes of your fellow man.

Our job is to convince our fellow man that we're sane.

individually and collectively.

al

Do you really believe those records have been destroyed? The copy the FBI has where you called in for the check.
1) other agencies access those files and make copies, also backups
2) ALL agencies backup their files (computers) on a regular bases
3) If the store goes out of business it is required to send ALL current 4473's in to the FBI

JimP

 

[Hunter]

4473's are exclusive property of the dealer, completely private.

So, I don't have to worry about telling my shrink that I feel like ___ someone, since his files are private?

I've learned that if you don't BURN old records every year you are stupid and may well have to lie about it if asked. The first time I was subpoena'd over a ten-yr-old construction project I fudged the truth, I said "I'll have to check with the office and get back to you."

I went home and BURNED those papers

I called back and said "I'm sorry, those records have been destroyed."

Perjury and spoliation of evidence may have unpleasant consequences sometimes.

 

[glp]

It

If the last election wasn't rigged we're in some serious trouble here....

Wasn't rigged.

 

[mike in co]

whine all you want...
you do not seem to understand...
they only know someone tried to buy a firearm...
they only know long gun pistol or shotgun....
THEY DO NOT KNOW THE SERIAL NUIMBER, not the manufacturer
THEY DO NOT KNOW THE SPECIFICS OF THE GUN...SEMI BOLT REVOLVER SEMI SINGLE SHOT SHOTGUN OR TACTICAL...
THEY DO NOT KNOW IT THE TRANSACTION WENT THRU....

go read my answer about sending records( less than 7 yrs old) back to the batfe..

you are on the outside, making silly claims.....
go work in a gun shop or open your own..
but you have NO CLUE

mike in co

Do you really believe those records have been destroyed? The copy the FBI has where you called in for the check.
1) other agencies access those files and make copies, also backups
2) ALL agencies backup their files (computers) on a regular bases
3) If the store goes out of business it is required to send ALL current 4473's in to the FBI

JimP