cvatridge design, H4198, and Qucik Load

Charles,

With that said, what exactly was it that convinced you that there wasn't enough in the case?

In 1K Br, I can understand a requirement for fps. But in any other game, that really doesn't apply. I assumed, perhaps mistakenly, that you were talking about a perfect short range case. If 1K is the goal, then, I would again look to a case and powder with ~95% density. Personally, I don't like the 300 wby or win cases, despite being beaten by more of em than I care to count. Lmao. I'm not saying guys can't make em work, I just don't consider them ideal. Some of those folks say the same about the short mag, so who's right?

In short range br, I really don't think load density is a concern. I think proper burn and ignition are more important, and while you might say they are linked, I think good ignition with some air space is more important. Think about it, if you are looking to go to 100% LD, you are doing so because of ignition troubles at anything but. Sorta like marrying into 3 jailbound kids. The college fund really ain't a primary concern.
 
I've shot my share of matches with both the 6PPC and 30BR over the last few years. Very few rifles on the line at any given match are in tune for for an entire agg. For the most part, the 30 is used in score, and the 6 in group. Generally speaking, Its easier for me to see when a gun is out of tune at a group match, but more difficult when shooting score. How do I know this...I've shot 250's with 20+ X's at a number of score matches with a rifle that was completely out of tune. I've seen many other shooters do the same thing. It wasn't until looking at the targets later on that I realized how out of tune the gun was. This happens to me at group matches as well, but not as often. That's why so many shooters think that H4198 is so forgiving, but it aint the powder...it's the size of the bore that's making them think that there gun is in tune when its really not. Take that same 20X gun to a group match and see where a .25XX" agg gets you. You may get lucky every now and then preloading, but it will bite you in the ass in due time. There is no magic barrel/powder/cartridge combination that stays in tune in all conditions. This all leads me to N133 and the apparent lack of understanding that many shooters seem to have for it. So many think its finicky, but I believe you'll have similar results no matter what you shoot if you don't stay on top of the tune. I've shot N130, N133, H4198, surplus 8208, 8208XBR, Data68 and a few others in the PPC in the last few years, and I've been able to get them all to work in the right conditions. Once I finally made the decision to essentially stick to one powder, my life has gotten much easier. If you can't get 133 to work in a 6PPC, you either need new barrels, or you need to learn to tune your rifle for this powder. IMO, I don't think there is a better combiantion of powder and cartridge that we have for this game today. It is the ultimate 65K psi full density combo out there. This is not to say that I don't have 8208 to shoot when it's really dry however....
 
I just wish someone would try a 22-100 and neck it up to 6mm. Then fill it with H4198. I think that just might be the read deal. But then you are back, essentially to the 6Beggs. Lee....You have the 22-100 why don't you try it.

Donald
 
For what it's worth:

Nobel Scotland H-4198 Shot very well at 24 -24.8 gr with a 65 Berger .006 thou into the lands using a Rem 7.5 primer in a Pindell chambered 6 PPC.
The velocity in a 21.5 " Hart barrel was 3165 fps.
The velocity with this load varied by 1 fps on a 5 shot string one night at Namaka with very tight groups .

Of course this powder has not been made since 1995...

Glenn
 
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One can pretty much

take to the bank what Hal had to say above. Hal certainly has distinguished himself over the years as someone who knows how to tune rifles and to be able to use them effectively.

I have wondered why there hasn't been more technical information developed for tuners like charts for where to set them for the various temperature and helative humidity spectrums that occur during the shooting day. It would seem to me with a tuner that was more like a Harrels where one can accurately determine the position of the tuner, one could find pretty much exactly where the tuner needs to be set for the varying changes in DA. I suspect the actual number settings, barrel and rifle to barrel and rifle will differ but at least there would be a pretty good hint as to where one needs to go.

I haven't been willing yet to put in the time and resources to be able to determine if and when my rifles go out of tune during the day. It will take a lot of time , powder, primer and bullets to do and I suspect, wearing out a barrel to do it. This might be a better project done cooperatively.
 
skeetlee said:
Gene
Out of curiosity do you keep your tunnel at a constant temperature or does the temp fluctuate with the outside air temps? The reason i ask is simply because i want to get to the bottom of this 4198 debate regarding how temp sensitive this powder really is. I have had a couple fellas that i respect very highly tell me that 4198 can be difficult to stay on top of, and yet you say this isnt true. I don't for a minute believe that you would give false information, nor do i believe these other fellas would either. I dont have enough experience for my self to know. I have shot several pounds of this powder in my 30BR barrels and i haven't found there to be any issues, but perhaps the 22 and 6ppc will be different? I dont know. I dont really want to spend a lot of time and barrel life working with a powder thats going to turn around and bite me in the end. These ppc barrels only have a few hundred rounds of competitive life and i dont for a minute want to waste them using the wrong powder. Maybe there can be something said for how 4198 shoots in a consistent atmosphere compared to a spring/fall day in St Louis were the temps may fluctuate 25 degrees? Just curious. I have been thinking about this all day, so i thought i would ask. thank you sir! Lee
Click to expand...



Lee

The temperature in my tunnel varies with ambient temperature although I'm sure the large berm that covers it insulates it somewhat. I do not have sensors in the tunnel so I can't tell exactly what the temp is at any given time. One thing I have found during the past seven years of operation is that you must be able to control the air in the tunnel and the firing room, expansion room, tunnel and target room must be isolated completely from any source of heat or conditioned air. In other words, you must be able to evacuate the tunnel completely with the exhaust fan and ambient air inlets then, shut off the fan and close the inlets. The more air you draw down the tunnel, the worse the mirage becomes because the moving air drawn in from outside is of a different temperature than the tunnel walls. Once the exhaust fan is turned off and the inlets closed, the sight picture clears up completely within fifteen to twenty seconds. When the air in the tunnel is stopped, it quickly reaches equilibrium with the tunnel walls and mirage disappears.

I do not monitor the air temp in the firing room because I know the air density is the same as the ambient density outdoors. If you place an altimeter on the bench in the firing room and then take it outside, it will read the same.

As far as H4198 Extreme being temperature sensitive, I'll say this, "When it comes to tuning to benchrest standards, H4198 is no more sensitive than any other powder because it is not temperature and its affect on the powder that is primarily responsible for taking our rifles out of tune but rather the outside air temperature and its affect on AIR DENSITY.
 
Gene Beggs said:
Lee

I do not monitor the air temp in the firing room because I know the air density is the same as the ambient density outdoors. If you place an altimeter on the bench in the firing room and then take it outside, it will read the same.

As far as H4198 Extreme being temperature sensitive, I'll say this, "When it comes to tuning to benchrest standards, H4198 is no more sensitive than any other powder because it is not temperature and its affect on the powder that is primarily responsible for taking our rifles out of tune but rather the outside air temperature and its affect on AIR DENSITY.
Click to expand...

Gene

Would you please explain to me how this primary function works?

Not sure if your altimeter is adjustable for temperature and may be more representative of Density Altitude ISA than for air density that varies with temperature or humidity.

Thanks

Ken
 
Ken, I have a Kestrel 4000 but I seldom take it out of my loading box. I rely on what the rifle tells me on the target as to whether or not it is in tune. With a Sporter in either 6PPC or 6Beggs, two bullet holes of vertical at one hundred yards indicates the rifle is completely out of tune. A half turn in either direction on my tuner or up or down .6 grains of N133 will put the rifle right in tune.

Hope this helps

Gene Beggs
 
Ok Charles,
I think I know what yer ask'n.

You ever seen one of these?

It's a powder load density chart that comes with a dippy measure set. Buying one of the sets would allow you to use it and calculate densities for any powder not listed. Is that what you're getting at?

The second pic shows the inner card.

Lee1.jpg




Lee2.jpg
 
K Hope said:
Gene

Would you please explain to me how this primary function works?

Not sure if your altimeter is adjustable for temperature and may be more representative of Density Altitude ISA than for air density that varies with temperature or humidity.

Thanks

Ken
Click to expand...



Ken, after rereading your post above, I realized I did not answer your main question, "Would you please explain to me how this primary function works?

This subject was discussed in depth some time ago here on the forum but I don't mind repeating it. Be advised there are those who disagree with me about what causes our rifles to go out of tune as the day wears on but I am more certain than ever that I am right about it.

Let's say the rifle was dead nuts in tune the evening before the match began. Temp was 80 degrees and the rifle was just absolutely puttin' 'em in a hole so we said, "Okay, let's preload with that identical load, clean the barrel, put everything away and kick some serious tail tomorrow morning! :cool:

Next morning it's dead calm, temp is 60 degrees and you say to yourself, "Man, I'm gonna' steal one in these perfect conditions." :)

So,, the range officer says "Place bolts in rifles, commence firing." You foul the barrel with a couple of shots and go to the record. The first shot hits about where you expect but the second shot hits about a bullet hole low and the third shot hits about a bullet hole above the first. :eek: What in the 'ell is going on? :mad: Very simple; the rifle is completely out of tune. But how can that be? you ask. The same load was shootin' dots yesterday afternoon. :confused: Yep the same load was shootin' dots when the temp was 80 degrees but this morning temp is 20 degrees cooler and the air is more dense. As the bullet accelerates down the bore, it encounters more resistance than it did yesterday when temp was 80 so the in-bore time is increased.

Razor sharp tune is all about bullet exit timing. You want your bullets exiting when the muzzle is stopped at either the top or bottom of its swing. In the example above, it would have been necessary to increase the load .6 grains in order to be in tune at 60 degrees.

Hope this helps

Gene Beggs
 
Gene,
Just wondering if it's .6 grains or .3 grains to bring a 6PPC from completely out of tune to in tune. I was thinking it was .3 grains. I may have misunderstood you, but didn't you say that node to node was .6 grains? So isn't it .3 grains from out of tune to in tune? Please clarify, because on the 30-30, based on it's 40 grain load range, I generally change the load between .4 and .5 grains to bring it from out of tune to in tune.

Michael
 
If memory serves me right and I can find the information some place on my PC, If one has 2 bullet holes of vertical it should take approx .6 grains (1 WHOLE Number on a Harrels) to get back in tune. If 1 hole vertical it is approx .3 grains. Now if you use one of Gene's tuners I again believe you are never more than 1/2 turn out either way.

Ahh I found what I was looking for.

Here it is:

Let's assume we are shooting at the Midland Shooter's range which is 2800 msl. Temperature is 70 degrees F. We get our rifle in tune during the first match of the morning by varying the load or if you have a tuner, by adjusting it to tune out the vertical. Let's say you are tuning with the load and 30 grains of Vitavertical shoots dots at 70 degrees, so you record the load and temp to use as your base for the day. If the gun is shooting dots the bullets are exiting the muzzle just before a positive peak on the sine wave or just after a negative. That's a given and we don't have to think about it or argue about it.

Cooler air is thicker than warm air and creates more drag on the bullet as it accelerates down the bore. If we have the rifle in tune early in the morning when temp is 70 degrees, it will be in tune only until temperature increases. Here in Midland, temperature usually increases about 20 degrees by noon and if we do nothing to compensate, the rifle will be completely out of tune when temp reaches 90 degrees. When tuning with the powder the in-tune nodes appear at 1.2 grain intervals. This means that you cannot possibly be more than .6 grains out of tune and furthermore, unless you are already up against the max load, you can get the rifle in tune by going either up or down.

So let's forget about the air in the barrel and just agree that when the air gets warmer, it offers less resistance to the bullet as it accelerates down the bore and the bullets begin to exit early. We compensate by reducing the load slightly. How much? .6 grains for each 20 degree increase in temp. Or,, .15 grains for each 5 degrees increase; .30 grains for each 10 degrees. If you're using a Culver type measure, each number on the dial represents .6 grains of Vitavertical; each half number is of course .30 grains which is the smallest correction I bother to make. If my rifle is shooting dots at 70 degrees and 54 clicks, I'll reduce the load to 53.5 when temp reaches 80 degrees, 53.0 at 90. Clear?

"Oh but Beggs, I thought you tuned with your tuner!)

Yes, I do but I'm just trying to keep things simple. Very few centerfire shooters use a tuner but as more and more discover how well they work, that will change.

Hope this helps. Fire away, I'm taking cover.

Gene Beggs

That was from a post a while back. Calvin
 
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Sorry Charles for getting so far off track.



Gene

Thank you for your response.

You could be right but this is what I am seeing. Two major factors of tune : Powder temperature sensitivity; primarily a Arrhenius function where by the rate of energy created is increased with increasing powder ambient temperature. And: Heat transfer (friction and powder) to the barrel.

I can not see how a in bore atmospheric condition other than temperature could change anything considering blowby.

Regards

Ken
 
Nor can I see how "air conditions" within the bore can remain constant for five shots. I would think they would vary more from shots 1 through 5 (or 6,7, whatever with sighters) than the ambient temperature from morning to afternoon. Then there are the times when it's 85 in the afternoon, the gun's shooting dots, and at 65 the next morning, that first group is in the zeros. It shouldn't be, on this model.

Then we have the whole question: if the center of mass for the whole rifle is centered around the bore centerline, and the rifle is shot completely free recoil, doesn't the whole "barrel whip" phenomena either change drastically or disappear? Isn't that in effect what Vaughn's recoil isolater achieved?

And does centering the mass depend on only radial position, or is longitudinal position also a factor? I.e., if the scope above balances the weight of the stock (mostly) below, are we still out of secondary balance -- like the rocking couple of a 4-cylinder engine?
 
Gene,

I have been one who has had a lot of sensitivity issues with H4198. As you will tell, I am not a fan of it but here is my story.

Around 2005, I decided to have some 22-.100ppc’s chambered up. At this time, I was evaluating four bullets (Barts, Watsons, Cheeks, Hornady) and five powders (V133, V135, V130, H4198 extreme, old 8208). Since I had the most of Watsons, Fed 205M primers, Lapua cases, these became the baseline to try the different types of powders out. For all pratical purposes, Barts/Watsons/Cheeks are all the same designed bullet.

I started with three barrels, a 1980 production Shilen 1-14tw & one each of newer Shilen and Krieger 1-14tw’s. The platform for all the barrels were the same (BAT action, Kelbly Stock, Jewell Trigger, B&L scope). Since I owned three .223 and one .222rem, I thought that I would work with these also, even though I consider them stock guns (and I will come back to them and how I used them).

During initial testing, patterns came out very quickly. For one, V130 & V135 were discounted and removed from the testing as accuracy just wasn’t there over an agg of 3 shot groups. V133 showed promise and H4198 looked to be the ticket. On virtually three identical days, I shot three aggs in the mid ones with H4198 while V133 was showing around .2200. I would load and shoot just like in a match, one group with H4198, clean, load and shoot group with V133. Prior to going to five shot groups, I had worked up with three shot groups but all targets shot during the three days were 5 shot groups. Groups were shot in the upper 70’s between approx 1300-1800hrs. Velocity for the H4198 was in the area of 3470fps and V133 was 3380-3400fps. With this new found knowledge of H4198 accuracy found, I ordered an additional 40 lbs of the same lot. It was a couple of weeks before I got to shoot again and this is where things started to get real interesting. The temp had risen to mid 80’s, I loaded up three rounds of the same load of H4198 to foul the barrel and settle things in, and this was not a hot load at all. All three cases were ruined…extraction was difficult and the webs had expanded enough that they couldn’t be resized.

This is where my adventure with H4198 started. What I found after fours years of testing H4198 (39.5 lbs burnt), several barrels and over 400 wasted/ruined cases was that the difference between great accuracy and disaster was about .4 grains. The problem was, sometimes a five degree increase would cause it and other times, it took 10-15 degrees. Very unpredictable. I tracked temp/humidity/barometer pressure and could find no consistent behavior. When H4198 is on….it is on big time…when it’s off…it always seems to spike, whether the load was lite or hot. I do believe as Hal D, as the bore diameter goes up, H4198 becomes a more consistent powder.

The three .223’s (AR spacegun, savage varmint, xp100) & one .222 (Anschutz) are all good and repeatable guns. When going to H4198, they exhibited the same characteristics as the 22-.100 custom. Except that on several occasions, piercing primers happened.
During all this testing, I also shoot the gun with 8208 & V133. The old 8208 out agg’d them all by a large margin in match type temp swings and in matches. All barrels I have shot/tested have been competitive in 22-.100 short. All types of bullets shot competitively (yes, even the Hornady V-max 50gn).

This coming season, the wife and I will be shooting the 22-.100 shorts (her all the time and myself on occasion) & I will also be testing the 22-.080 which I believe will be optimal for the lots of 8208 I have.

I believe I would be shooting a 22ppc short all the time if I had not wasted so much time on trying to figure out H4198 in it. I would develop confidence & then would try H4198 and out the window it would go. That coupled with the fact that my gunsmith thinks I’m crazy to mess with the 22ppc short (as some others also), I haven’t given it the opportunity it needs in the actual competitive environment.

Now, some, maybe wondering how I came about shooting 8208 in the 22 short. Well, it was by accident. The wife and I went to a shoot in St. Louis in February, 2009. I intended on shooting a 6ppc and the wife was going to shoot the 22 short. Well, since I shoot mostly 8208 in the 6ppc, I had packed it in the car but forgot to pack the V133 that I was going to have the wife shoot. And to complicate things further, when I pulled my gun out of the case, it still had a 22ppc short barrel on it. Sooooo…I filled the case up to about a 1/8” below the case mouth, seated the bullet at full jam and we both shot the same load in two different rifles, with two different manufactures barrels and two different bullets (one reason I set at jam, only one set of dies). Without adjusting the initial load, we won three of the four small groups (she finished second to me on one and I finished second to her on one), and I place in the top five across the board if I remember right. My wife had shot less than 10 centerfire rounds in her life and this was her first match. It was very windy with temps running 27 to 48 during the day.

At this point, I have shot close to 10,000 rounds through the 22-.100 short and the only thing I will ever tell you that I have figured out about BR, H4198 don’t work in 22ppc’s. I know someone might chime in and say “Bill Forester shoots H4198 and has won the supershoot with it”. Yes he has. I talk to Bill for a few hours every year about the 22ppc shorts and we do disagree on H4198, however, I have watched Bill load and shoot enough that I will stand behind my prior statement…..when it’s on…it’s on….when it’s not…it’s not (horribly). These are the words I tell Bill every time when I first see him, he gets a good chuckle out of it. But I do believe, if Bill would switch powders, he’d be real hard to beat. But he’ll probably do that about the same time he sells me some bullets.

I will end this on a positive note about H4198, if anyone can REALLY figure out how to consistently stay on top of this stuff….one thing I have learned while burning up this powder….wind drift is constantly less with it than the other powders I have tested. I have some ideas why but they are just that.

Also, I do want to thank Gene for all he has done and all the info he has posted on this site. I believe our most valuable asset is to be able to reason and think for ourselves. So please don’t take anything I have said as fact…find out for yourself.

Kevin
 
mturner said:
Gene,
Just wondering if it's .6 grains or .3 grains to bring a 6PPC from completely out of tune to in tune. I was thinking it was .3 grains. I may have misunderstood you, but didn't you say that node to node was .6 grains? So isn't it .3 grains from out of tune to in tune? Please clarify, because on the 30-30, based on it's 40 grain load range, I generally change the load between .4 and .5 grains to bring it from out of tune to in tune.

Michael
Click to expand...



Mike, it's .6 grains to take the PPC (N133) completely out of tune and another .6 grains to bring it back into tune. I hope I never said .3 grains because that represents only a quarter of the window. With the average Sporter in 6PPC, the nodes appear at 1.2 grain intervals.

GeneBeggs
 
Charles,
About the balance around the axis of thrust thing....If I remember correctly, from some of what has been said about short range tuning, a perfect tune for vertical, can result in the increased propensity to get a weather report. It may be that this is another case where some is good, but more is not better, and the real question is, how much is just right?
 
Kevin, your post number 37 is very thorough and much appreciated. I am not surprised you had trouble with H4198 in the 100 short 22PPC. I think 4198 is a bit too fast for that cartridge and I do not use it in my 220 Beggs, which is virtually identical. Mike Ratigan says he has found N133 to be the best powder for the 100 short 22PPC and I would say the same thing about the 220 Beggs.

Since discovering and perfecting the 6Beggs, I have not done much with the 22. I find the 6 to be so easy and pleasant to shoot that I see no need for the 22. Sticking to one cartridge that can be used in all categories sure simplifies things and I'm all for keeping things simple. I don't like muzzle blast and recoil and the reason I came up with the 220 Beggs was to get away from these two pests. Once I discovered the mild manners of the 6Beggs, I no longer had a need for the 22. H4198 is perfect in the 6.

If someone (Jackie!) would shorten a 6PPC so that it held 28 grains of H4198 without having to trickle it in, I think he would have a cartridge that would equal the 6Beggs. But then of course, you have the problem of dies, reamers, case forming etc. Why bother? The 6Beggs is already there. If you haven't tried this little cartridge with H4198 Extreme, you're really missing out on something good! :D

Let me ask you something, "If you already had several good shooting Sporters chambered in 6PPC, why would you want to build a 100 short 22PPC? To get away from the recoil and muzzle blast of the hot loaded 6PPC; right? Now let me ask you this, "If you could have a 6mm Sporter that would do everything the 6PPC does but felt like you were shooting a 22PPC, you would probably be interested; huh? You would probably build it instead of the 22; right? Shooting only one caliber really simplifies things. Only one bullet, one powder, one size cleaning rod and patches, no chance of getting things mixed up etc., etc. :cool: Believe me, the 6Beggs gives up nothing to the 6PPC except muzzle blast and recoil. Try one; you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Gene Beggs
 
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